KiCad Open-Source PCB Design Software Keeps Working Towards Its Next Big Release

[kenjo]

I perfectly know what wxWidgets is. I am not blaming the developers design choice. I was only irritated by the initial comment, that describes, that this tool will be getting a GTK3 user interface haul. Even using this abstraction layer makes the entire thing somehow alien to the native GTK3 widget set. Because it is - as you say - an abstraction layer. Not the native thing. A middle ware that a) needs the requirements of this middle ware, b) adds another dependency - the middle ware, c) I am quite sure that you can't use the full bandwidth of the GTK3 toolkit through an abstraction layer that needs to ensure that all supported widget sets have a unique interface. So things that you might be able to set within GTK3 directly, might not be possible through wxWidgets due to possible limitations.

This is not a native linux application. It needs to run on Windows and macos also so using GTK is probably never going to happen. If they do change the toolkit I do not see any alternative than to go to QT.

[cb88]

I perfectly know what wxWidgets is. I am not blaming the developers design choice. I was only irritated by the initial comment, that describes, that this tool will be getting a GTK3 user interface haul. Even using this abstraction layer makes the entire thing somehow alien to the native GTK3 widget set. Because it is - as you say - an abstraction layer. Not the native thing. A middle ware that a) needs the requirements of this middle ware, b) adds another dependency - the middle ware, c) I am quite sure that you can't use the full bandwidth of the GTK3 toolkit through an abstraction layer that needs to ensure that all supported widget sets have a unique interface. So things that you might be able to set within GTK3 directly, might not be possible through wxWidgets due to possible limitations.

That's irrelevant, the boards are rendered in OpenGL now not GTK... who cares what the buttons and knobs are rendered with as they aren't performance critical.... if you have performance issues drawing some buttons and fields well, there are larger issues than which toolkit you are using.

It isn't a tookit change anyway... its a update to how the UI works. AFAIK KiCad already runs on GTK3 via wxWidgets. I wish it worked 100% on QT also... then I could use it on Haiku.

[Candy]

wxWidgets is an abstraction layer; not an emulator. Why is it so important to you to try and make a distinction between an app that uses wxGTK and one that doesn't?

I perfectly know what wxWidgets is. I am not blaming the developers design choice. I was only irritated by the initial comment, that describes, that this tool will be getting a GTK3 user interface haul. Even using this abstraction layer makes the entire thing somehow alien to the native GTK3 widget set. Because it is - as you say - an abstraction layer. Not the native thing. A middle ware that a) needs the requirements of this middle ware, b) adds another dependency - the middle ware, c) I am quite sure that you can't use the full bandwidth of the GTK3 toolkit through an abstraction layer that needs to ensure that all supported widget sets have a unique interface. So things that you might be able to set within GTK3 directly, might not be possible through wxWidgets due to possible limitations.

[LaeMing]

Now I wonder, was that with KiCAD? Don't they have a more-or-less stable file format?

No, I am describing three very popular commercial software suites in different fields that the Academics prefer to teach with for reasons I consider frankly dubious (ie, not related to actual features or functionality exclusive to them).

Electronics CAD is one only I have use for in our section, not actual students in our courses, and the current UI of KiCAD is a usability problem for me, but from the roadmap linked from this article, it is looking like that is seen as an issue by the devs too, so improvements are highly likely in the shorter term (YAY!).

[rubdos]

Very much. While I don't teach, I do spec. some of the student computer labs where I work and keep OSS software available on the machines as an option for anyone who wishes to use them (which is potentially about as often as one of the licensing-servers for what the Academics prefer goes cloud-typical-behaviour, or because our IT department has the audacity to test patches before they deploy them, we don't get our updates on exactly the same day as the students' home systems, so what they save at home the previous night won't open in class because 'old version', or a commercial software supplier changes the licensing for a component to 'free-of-charge' with the odd run-on effect that it is now outside our paid license and we can't install it anymore, etc. etc.).*

I call it a "learning experience". Someday people may actually learn!

* If you get the impression I am citing actual things I have experienced recently, you are - sadly - quite correct. The saddest thing being that the vast majority people are conditioned to accept this as 'normal'!

Now I wonder, was that with KiCAD? Don't they have a more-or-less stable file format?

[DanL]

So it still isn't a GTK3 user interface then... Using wxGTK3 (as in the 5.x version) makes it a wxWidgets user interface mimicking a GTK3 user experience.

wxWidgets is an abstraction layer; not an emulator. Why is it so important to you to try and make a distinction between an app that uses wxGTK and one that doesn't?

[Nout]

I used to do some stuff with Eagle because I disliked KiCAD, but I recently found out about LibrePCB. I didn't like KiCAD because I couldn't be bothered deciphering the unintuitive interface, and LibrePCB really is easy to get used to coming from Eagle.

I'm currently designing a keyboard PCB with it and so far my experience has been really good. The 1.0 just got released so it's still missing some relatively basic features and has some bugs (traces can overlap, not auto router, power planes sometimes act funky and have no thermal relief, etc.), but I'm impressed by how stable it is. Also it has IMO a very good library system. The included base library has quite a few standard packages, and components are categorized much more cleanly than Eagle's.

I think it's worth a try for beginners or to design simple PCBs.

[LaeMing]

IMO, especially academics should try and use KiCAD. It's extremely capable, and will with high probability fullfill your needs. If academics would teach KiCAD, we're halfway world domination!

Very much. While I don't teach, I do spec. some of the student computer labs where I work and keep OSS software available on the machines as an option for anyone who wishes to use them (which is potentially about as often as one of the licensing-servers for what the Academics prefer goes cloud-typical-behaviour, or because our IT department has the audacity to test patches before they deploy them, we don't get our updates on exactly the same day as the students' home systems, so what they save at home the previous night won't open in class because 'old version', or a commercial software supplier changes the licensing for a component to 'free-of-charge' with the odd run-on effect that it is now outside our paid license and we can't install it anymore, etc. etc.).*

I call it a "learning experience". Someday people may actually learn!

* If you get the impression I am citing actual things I have experienced recently, you are - sadly - quite correct. The saddest thing being that the vast majority people are conditioned to accept this as 'normal'!

[eelik]

KiCad uses wxWidgets as the UI library. WxWidgets uses different backend libraries on different platforms for "native" UI. On Linux it's either GTK2 or GTK3. Only recently GTK3 was enabled for KiCad, in version 5.0 it still used only GTK2, in the upcoming 5.1 GTK3 is a compile-time option and will apparently be used in some Linux distro packages.

The situation is very complicated, even though I have followed the development process closely I can't remember the details. But KiCad uses python for scripting and wxPython for scripting UI. The older wxPython could use only GTK2 backend while the newer Phoenix wxPython uses GTK3. The GTK3 backend had to be enabled for KiCad, otherwise python3 could not have been used and some distros are moving completely away from python2 and don't have older wxPython. It's quite a mess because it's up to package maintainers to choose the backend and the features. Now some user scripts may not be compatible with all KiCad installtions, even with the same KiCad version.

BTW, even though 6.0 will be the next major release (after couple of years; two years would be an optimistic estimation, many old time followers guess three is more realistic), the soon upcoming 5.1 has many UI, workflow and feature improvements while being fully project compatible with 5.0. Some people haven't even moved from 4.0 to 5.0, and 5.1 will be a huge leap forward for them.

The article was a bit inaccurate. To be more exact: GTK3 backend, UI improvements and many smaller features will be enabled in 5.1. Later, in 6.0, we will see file format changes, "engine" changes and many new major features. The "graphics abstraction layer / canvas" existed even in 4.0 but was for the layout part only. In 5.1 it's used for the schematic part, too.

[rubdos]

Nice! I am still using Eagle* because I am familiar with it, it does a perfectly adequate job and I don't have to pay for it (academic license eligible + no interest in commercial use), but keep a keen eye on KiCad, which isn't quite there for me UI-wise, but I am ever hopeful!

* I use it at work on Win7, but not at home because I can't be bothered going outside my package manager to install software (my own time is far to valuable to me to waste it messing around with tedious closed-software installations!).

IMO, especially academics should try and use KiCAD. It's extremely capable, and will with high probability fullfill your needs. If academics would teach KiCAD, we're halfway world domination!