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Sony Is Working On AMD Ryzen LLVM Compiler Improvements - Possibly For The PlayStation 5

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Luke_Wolf View Post

    Or rather... You are the one who doesn't understand how development works, and thinks that somehow magically development occurs at the same pace regardless of manpower. Which is simply untrue.

    Unless you mean to say that FreeBSD which is in even worse shape than Linux in it's graphics department is somehow infinitely better and easier to work with than Linux is. Sony did exactly that, taking the pre-existing OS of FreeBSD forked it internally and poured on the manpower until they got an OS capable of doing gaming out of it. Are there limits to what you can do with that? Sure, but you're full of shit Templar.

    Also that doesn't change the fact that when they did launch the Steam Machines originally with the Nvidia binary drivers there was no real marketing and not a single gamestop anywhere put out display units for people to play on, not to mention failure to put stock in other stores, which basically ensured a failure to launch.
    See my response to Starshipeleven, once it gets approved.

    Other than that, Sony uses a FreeBSD fork, yes. They have been using it for more than a decade, and have created their OWN GRAPHICAL APIS on top of it. No one uses OpenGL on PS3 or 4. Sony began working on FreeBSD in order to get it into shape for PS3 in the early 2000s...

    And that was my original point, which of course according to ignorant kids is bullshit. Valve decided too late to compete with Microsoft (due to Windows 8 shenanigans) , and by the time they did they didn't have the time to shape an OS version for a console. So they just experimented with Steam Machines and those turned to shit.

    I am pretty sure all the 18 year olds who call me full of shit have decades of console development experience though. And can definitely explain how Valve could have competed with a Linux console in 2013...

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    • #32
      Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post

      The Microsoft response was BS. The true reason they used jaguar cores was to avoid compatibility issues with existing software.
      Or, to avoid compatibility issues with future software - being coded for the Ryzen and not being able to run on the original XBox One.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by CuriousTommy View Post

        It probably because GCC is GPL licenced.
        That doesn't matter for a compiler unless they want to keep their optimizations secret, but this very story is about upstreaming them.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by coder View Post
          Perhaps they have some kind of IDE into which they've integrated LLVM.
          That makes sense. But many companies then have both, llvm as a library and gcc as a compiler, but I guess they are close enough in performance they can pick one these days. It just doesn't seem like they need the BSD license when they are giving the optimizations back anyway.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by carewolf View Post

            That doesn't matter for a compiler unless they want to keep their optimizations secret, but this very story is about upstreaming them.
            Well Google created bionic instead of using any of the existing GPL:ed libc:s even though they releases the source code for it. Some companies just don't like the GPL. It's also quite possible that Sony is pushing some changes upstream while keeping others closed, or they use some LLVM plugins in their SDK that they don't want to release.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post

              See my response to Starshipeleven, once it gets approved.

              Other than that, Sony uses a FreeBSD fork, yes. They have been using it for more than a decade, and have created their OWN GRAPHICAL APIS on top of it. No one uses OpenGL on PS3 or 4. Sony began working on FreeBSD in order to get it into shape for PS3 in the early 2000s...
              BZZZZZZT Wrong that's a myth. Yes they make their own API however the BSD effort was new with the PS4 and based off of FreeBSD 9. Let's hear it from the voice of the guy who convinced them to use FreeBSD in the first place:



              Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post
              And that was my original point, which of course according to ignorant kids is bullshit. Valve decided too late to compete with Microsoft (due to Windows 8 shenanigans) , and by the time they did they didn't have the time to shape an OS version for a console. So they just experimented with Steam Machines and those turned to shit.

              I am pretty sure all the 18 year olds who call me full of shit have decades of console development experience though. And can definitely explain how Valve could have competed with a Linux console in 2013...
              The only kid here is you: Mr. Valve Fanboy. Nice projection however.

              As to how Valve could have solved their problem, Starshipeleven and I quite clearly laid it out for you, kid, but here since your reading comprehension is so limited with you being in 4th grade and all, I'll put it in bullet points for you to make it simple to read. Because here's the protip... the Steam Machines didn't need to fail, they failed because Valve is Valve.
              • Instead of having people just work on it in their free time when they feel like it since there's no hierarchy at Valve, actually hire an entire division of people to actually work on Steam for Linux and SteamOS as their sole purpose.
              • Instead of assuming everyone else was going to do their work for them, actually leverage their vendor relationships to pursue their effort to these ends
              • Actually participate in developing efforts like Wayland and actually engage the community in general
              • Pay for some actual advertisement off of the steam platform
              • Have Gamestop actually put out display units for people to play on
              • Have general stores Target, Walmart, etc carry and have display units


              But no, no kid... obviously the correct answer for Valve was to sit on their hands, and focus on the steam controller and VR, and work on Vulkan but almost completely ignore the SteamOS part of the equation until they finally really just abandoned the Steam Machine project altogether.

              Also kid, if you think Valve didn't think it was ready or didn't think it was worth putting in the effort... riddle me this... why did they launch actual hardware at all? They could have waited till it was actually ready or just silently killed the hardware if they didn't want the investment. Instead kid, it was all quarter assing all the way for one actual reason: it isn't sexy to work on. Valve developers basically have free choice in what they want to work on... if your choice is between OS development, Client Development, VR development, Controller Development, graphics API development (Vulkan), or games... guess which 2 are going to largely go ignored. That is why it failed.

              It's not "Oh they need a decade to work on this" it's "They sat on their hands, they launched early, and then they didn't even follow through and then forgot about it"
              Last edited by Luke_Wolf; 20 May 2018, 07:49 AM.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by coder View Post
                I'm not sure they use the same backend & layout for these custom jobs as their baseline products. For instance, PS4 Slim, PS4 Pro and XBox One S, and XBox One X all used older cores on a newer process. In at least the latter case, the cores even contain additional customizations. Mid-generation node shrinks aren't new, for consoles - the PS3 had at least 3 of the CPU and GPU, each (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlaySt...Configurations).
                You are mixing up refreshes and generations. Within a generation little to no changes to the hardware are done, swapping a CPU arch is out of question as performance of released titles might fluctuate badly enough to cause problems, bot the PS 4 Pro and the XBox X run old games with the same frequencies by default.
                Thats paranoid backwards-compatibility.
                Originally posted by coder View Post
                Anyway, there are economic reasons why they might not ship on 7 nm, plus the lead-time vs. market window I mentioned above. It's not all simply about having the latest, greatest, and fastest tech. If the current gen is anything to go by, they don't mind doing a mid-generation refresh.
                If they dont change to 7nm, then there aint a chance the new machines will be significantly faster than the XBox X (atleast for the GPU). A refresh would add one more configuration that has to be supported for the same games, a new generation would have a baseline that's barely distinguishable from previous gens refresh.

                Both a disaster. add to it, that structures and thus efficiency wont scale well below 7nm (with silicium lithography atleast). So the next console gen might need to last for a really long time.
                Originally posted by coder View Post
                Not mobile chips, but mobile cores. They probably did a quick calculation and found they could achieve more performance with a larger number of the smaller, more efficient cores than fewer of the Bulldozer-derived ones. Also, they had to maximize GPU, so die area was another concern.
                yes exactly, different targets - thats not the case with Zen1 vs Zen2.

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                • #38
                  It is rumored the PS5 will use a Zen2+Navi APU, so it makes sense Sony is working in this.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post
                    The Microsoft response was BS. The true reason they used jaguar cores was to avoid compatibility issues with existing software.
                    You know these are both x86-64, right? So, you're saying games that run on AMD's Jaguar cores won't run on Ryzen?

                    Does AMD know about this?

                    Does anyone know about this besides you?

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by carewolf View Post
                      It just doesn't seem like they need the BSD license when they are giving the optimizations back anyway.
                      GPL prevents you from linking to it with non-GPL code. So, they'd not only have to give away their optimizations, but they'd have to provide their customers with the sources of everything linking to it.

                      Furthermore such tools could not link in any non-GPL/LGPL code (including 3rd party libraries which they don't control), which might be the real issue.

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