Woah, It Looks Like Oracle Will Stand Behind OpenSolaris

[kebabbert]

You have shown only ONE dev. So, not Mozilla devs, but ONE Mozilla dev.

Jesus Kraftman. I can mail those DTrace praisers at Mozilla and ask how many have switched from Linux just because of DTrace, and maybe he will say 3-4 or 14% of all devs, or 90% or whatever. That is not the point.

The point is, there are Mozilla developers that have switched from Linux just because they want DTrace. There are people here, saying that DTrace is not as good as people say, DTrace is just a polished version of Systemtap. I am telling them: "No, DTrace is far better. You are wrong on this. There are Linux developers that have switched to only get DTrace. How can that happen, if DTrace is just slightly better? Ergo, DTrace is not slightly better. It is VASTLY better."

And I posted links to Linux people switching to OpenSolaris/Solaris. The point is to show that DTrace is VASTLY better than anything else on the market. The point is not exactly how many Linux devs that have switched, that is not important. I just want to show that there ARE Linux devs switching, just because to get DTrace. That DTrace is superior to anything else, which is proven by several Linux devs switch just to get DTrace. Hence, you are wrong, DTrace is not just slightly more polished.

So the question is: Is DTrace far superior, or slightly more polished? That is what we are trying to discuss. Jesus Kraftman, did you miss that discussion, or are you just trying to play dumb? Do you have anything interesting to add to the DTrace superiority discussion? Or are you going to post the same old "Systemtap is a DTrace killer! Systemtap is 1337 HaX0rz best" again?

If you have some interesting links to add to the discussion, for instance a link saying: Developer try out DTrace and then after some time developer says "I gone back to Systemtap. After the first month, I realised DTrace is not that much better than Systemtap", then post such links. Or if you have links that show Developers switch from DTrace to Systemtap, then post it. If you have no links which shows developers prefer Systemtap before DTrace, then you have nothing interesting to add to the discussion. I have showed links where Developers switch from Linux just to get DTrace. You have not showed links that show Developers switch just to get Systemtap, or where Developers praise Systemtap over DTrace. So, how can DTrace just be "slightly more polished"? No, that is wrong. DTrace is vastly better.

This is actually evident if you are a programmer. If you are not, you will not understand anything.

[kraftman]

If I say "Mozilla devs have switched to OpenSolaris" it is very different from saying "All mozilla devs have switched to OpenSolaris".

You have shown only ONE dev. So, not Mozilla devs, but ONE Mozilla dev.

[shmerl]

I think they mostly use DTrace on Macs, actually. They've never cared much about Linux/Unix. And even OSX support has always been a distant 2nd to windows.

Initially it was close to that at Mozilla, but fortunately it's not so polarized anymore, though Windows versions development still gets attention first (not accidentally though - the majority of the userbase use Windows).

[smitty3268]

Kraftman, now you are just silly again. There are several Mozilla devs that uses DTrace. One of them even nominated DTrace to an award. If Mozilla devs use DTrace, then they must use OpenSolaris. There are no DTrace on Linux.

I think they mostly use DTrace on Macs, actually. They've never cared much about Linux/Unix. And even OSX support has always been a distant 2nd to windows.

[kebabbert]

Btrfs is a zfs killer, because it's a much faster then zfs, has a feature parity with it and what's the most important it's the Linux file system. Kebbabert, you have lied about Firefox devs switching to slowlaris. Now, you showed few "devs" more links, but not related to what you were claiming.

I see nothing here, about switching to slowlaris.

It seems it's an only dev who switched (and you gave this link before, so he's counted only once). Where are the others? You do lie and FUD.

Three or four maybe prefer to use it, but as far I can see an only one is claiming he has switched. You do lie and FUD.

An another meaningless example. Does he switch? Nothing about this.

There are many stories. Many of them are good for children.

Afaik, Solaris is a living ocean, so I bet such lame devs from the Sun know nothing about it.

So, Keb, "Firefox developers have switched from Ubuntu to Solaris just because of DTrace" it's a lie, isn't it?

If I say "Mozilla devs have switched to OpenSolaris" it is very different from saying "All mozilla devs have switched to OpenSolaris". If I say "it rained last week" - do I mean it rained the entire week, or do I mean that someday it rained? If I say "I went to Spain last summer" do I mean I was in Spain the entire whole summer, or that I did spend only a period in Spain? If I say "police men hit me last year" do I mean all policemen in the world hit me?

Kraftman, now you are just silly again. There are several Mozilla devs that uses DTrace. One of them even nominated DTrace to an award. If Mozilla devs use DTrace, then they must use OpenSolaris. There are no DTrace on Linux.

If you post reasonable interesting things, with links and if you stop FUDing (which you confessed you do) I can continue discussion. But not when you just play dumb.

[kebabbert]

He's not making it up. In Linux the current graphics drivers are split between "DRM" (Direct Rendering Manager) modules in the kernel and various userland libraries. Timing-critical, security-critical, and other privileged operations (e.g. memory allocation, DMA) happen in the kernel, while basically everything else is pushed out to userland (libdrm/libGL). An overview of the Direct Rendering Infrastructure (of which the Direct Rendering Manager is a component) is here. There is an overview of the Windows Vista Display Driver Model here, which outlines a roughly similar architecture and contrasts it with the model of Windows XP/2000. Of course, MS won't say it's similar to Linux, and the Linux doc won't say it's similar to Windows since it was written ~6 years before Windows moved to the current model, but if you pay attention the similarity is pretty obvious.

Ok, I believe you. I have not read your links, but you would not lie while giving links. No one does that.

But I do not lie either. I have read an article which said that Graphics is moving into the Linux kernel. The article is in swedish

http://www.idg.se/2.1085/1.108792

It turns out that the article is based on this email from linux kernel list:

http://kerneltrap.org/node/8242

And that the article is not correct (which is evident if you read the entire mail).

Here is another english article that talks about moving graphics into Linux kernel:

http://www.linux-mag.com/id/4825

On the other hand, here is an article that says that Windows is moving all graphics out of the kernel:

http://news.techworld.com/operating-systems/5002/microsoft-to-move-graphics-outside-os-kernel/

I claim only things I have read. I do not make up things. But I accept your post as credible, so from now on, I stop say that Linux has moved the graphics into kernel. Only some parts have moved into the kernel, apparently (as you have explained to me).

Thanx for correcting me. If you see any other error I make, please point them out. I HATE false facts, I only want to say true things.

You see that if you disprove me, then I stop at once. Immediately. I do not lie about this.

[kebabbert]

Let us play with the thought that Solaris tech is VASTLY inferior, it is far worse than anything else on the market. If this where true, then would anyone want it? No. Would Sun then go bankrupt and get bought up by another company? Yes. The conclusion is, Solaris tech is not slightly worse. It is super duper unique and terrible.

HAHAHAHA! That was a good one! Good point.

But, you know, the market does not decide which tech is best. There are numerous examples. For instance, VHS vs Betamax. Or, Windows vs Linux. Windows have a bigger market share than Linux, but of course Linux is much much better than Windows ever will be. So, good point, but not valid.

[jadrevenge]

I know this is obviously a stupid question ...

But if you don't _Like_ Solaris, why are you bothering to have a flame war in the Solaris section of a site, wouldn't it be easier just to let this drop.

Having said that ...

I use Linux (Ubuntu) at home on the Desktop/Laptop.

I use OpenSolaris on my laptop at work (unless you can tell me how to do an "ifconfig nge0 addif 192.168.1.20 netmask 255.255.255.0 up" on Linux this is never going to change)

We run Solaris 10 on the main file and backup servers.

We have however installed some Ubuntu Server edition machine for various tasks.

We have a Linux server running PSQL Server, which does not run on Solaris, which was a non-windows alternative to run the Accounts server on, this allows for rsync to the ZFS backed up Solaris servers.

We have about 5 Linux OpenVPN servers dotted around in various companies ... We could do this in OpenSolaris, but it's easier in Ubuntu Server.

We have a couple of Linux Print servers, allowing Samba to talk to CUPS ... seperate from our file servers which require Authentication ...

Our Linux machines don't do redundant OpenLDAP servers in their server lists, they don't have access to ufsdump/restore for tape access or direct access to ZFS for accessing our internal and external backups/snapshots, but they have their uses.

On the other hand someone st*pid has decided that OpenSolaris should have 1 cut and past buffer so if I select something in a terminal it is automatically copied into the clipboard as well as the primary buffer (middle mouse click to paste), I am also aware that build 137 will fix both the keyboard buzz (remembering sound settings between boots) and the intel graphics (registers being over optimised and hanging for 12 seconds at a time every so often) but it's not available in a way that mere mortals can access.

Boot times on Ubuntu Server compared to OpenSolaris are just not in the same league, Memory use is higher in OpenSolaris and access to external FAT formatted USB devices are slow.

However I'm still keeping it as an essential tool in my arsenal, the networking is just better, ZFS is awesome and almost all Apps that are available as Code for Linux run with little problem on it.

[kraftman]

But the problem is, you have not pointed out any error!

Lots of Enterprise sysadmins say Linux is unstable. You have not proved otherwise.

Lots of Linux kernel devs says the code is bad. You have not proved the opposite.

Lots of devs (including Linux kernel devs) praise DTrace and ZFs. You have not proved otherwise.

The error is simple - this what they say just means they said this. I'm saying slowlaris is slow, buggy, has broken design, it's messed up, bloated and insecure. I'm also saying dtrace and zfs are just copies. You have not proven otherwise (and you won't, because of some simple reason :>). The kernel devs including Linus say the code is getting better and better and Linux is in a good shape. Lots of sysadmins say Linux is rock stable. You have not proven otherwise and you won't. :>

[kraftman]

Btrfs is a zfs killer, because it's a much faster then zfs, has a feature parity with it and what's the most important it's the Linux file system. Kebbabert, you have lied about Firefox devs switching to slowlaris. Now, you showed few "devs" more links, but not related to what you were claiming.

Another Firefox developer:

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=388564#c33

"No problem -- dtrace has been a huge help for us, from what I can see. Sayrer has been helping front-end hackers identify JS performance problems with it, which would be hard to find otherwise."

I see nothing here, about switching to slowlaris.

And also

http://blog.mozilla.com/rob-sayre/2007/09/06/land-of-dtrace/

Firefox Robert also praises DTrace.

It seems it's an only dev who switched (and you gave this link before, so he's counted only once). Where are the others? You do lie and FUD.

So why do you lie about me? I do not FUD. I do not make things up about Firefox developers prefering to use DTrace when developing. You make up things.

Three or four maybe prefer to use it, but as far I can see an only one is claiming he has switched. You do lie and FUD.

And another Linux developer considers switching to Solaris, just because of DTrace.

http://xblog.xman.org/2006/11/29/is-solaris-10-the-new-linux

"Most importantly though, Solaris has DTrace. DTrace is one of those developers tools that just makes you drool the first time you have it explained to you."

An another meaningless example. Does he switch? Nothing about this.

There are lots of similar stories.

There are many stories. Many of them are good for children.

Ignorant people that knows nothing about Solaris tech. Sigh.

Afaik, Solaris is a living ocean, so I bet such lame devs from the Sun know nothing about it.

So, Keb, "Firefox developers have switched from Ubuntu to Solaris just because of DTrace" it's a lie, isn't it?