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  • #31
    Originally posted by Stankami View Post

    It sure does man, people seem to be busy and do not bother reading Android OS changelog, at least from major releases. Android Nougat is so much better that KitKat or Lollipop, it's like night and day, yet they don't seem to realize the progress. Yeah it takes some time to get the upgrade on your device, but that's Android dev's fault? No you dumb schmuck, that's your shitty brand fault.

    Open Source? Hell yeah, go Linux/Unix take over the world.
    Android? Hell no bro fuck that piece of shit backdoored Open Source OS.

    WTF?
    I largely agree with what you are saying. I kind of laughed at the early comments someone made about KitKat era custom ROMs, compared to Nougat or Oreo, they are junk. Totally night and day. LOL... but I think some blame falls on Android, some falls on OEMs, I think there is a learning process here for all parties. In time, I think as OEMS and vendors make better use of mainline Linux, things are going to get easier and better...

    But I think it's foolish to think that it's only android that is backdoored. All hardware and software has backdoors and it would be silly to think otherwise. Open Source does allow auditing of code (and I'm with you in OSS - 10yrs+ user), but programmers still make mistakes or miss things, there will always be zero day exploits in every platform... I mean plus; you can remove gapps, or use a hardened version of android like copperheados.... but as far as viable alternatives to Android, what else are you going to use? An iPhone. That's pretty much it.

    Ps: calling people dumb shmucks or using foul language doesn't help articulate or add any emphasis to your points. Just saying.

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    • #32
      hrkristian
      , Not even. The standard txt app had good flow and now doesn't. Why remove the delete icon and hide it in a menu.
      imagine if email clients had no archive or delete button.
      ​​​​​​​This is dumb. Plenty of screen real estate for it.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by RelaxTrolls View Post

        I largely agree with what you are saying. I kind of laughed at the early comments someone made about KitKat era custom ROMs, compared to Nougat or Oreo, they are junk. Totally night and day. LOL... but I think some blame falls on Android, some falls on OEMs, I think there is a learning process here for all parties. In time, I think as OEMS and vendors make better use of mainline Linux, things are going to get easier and better...

        But I think it's foolish to think that it's only android that is backdoored. All hardware and software has backdoors and it would be silly to think otherwise. Open Source does allow auditing of code (and I'm with you in OSS - 10yrs+ user), but programmers still make mistakes or miss things, there will always be zero day exploits in every platform... I mean plus; you can remove gapps, or use a hardened version of android like copperheados.... but as far as viable alternatives to Android, what else are you going to use? An iPhone. That's pretty much it.

        Ps: calling people dumb shmucks or using foul language doesn't help articulate or add any emphasis to your points. Just saying.
        Yeah I agree with what you are saying and as you would guess I got a bit excited but man it pisses me off people bashing Android when there's no alternative. iOS? Hell no man, I'd rather give up on phones than switching to it, is elegant, simple and straightforward but it's also counterintuitive to me. I like having control of my device and such thing is not possible with iOS and I doubt it will ever be.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by torsionbar28 View Post
          Phones, yawn. I guess this is news to 14 year old girls who spend all day texting.
          I once heard of a web fad as it somehow went into local language (non-US, non-English) and someone the media reported on it.

          Oreo : a white girl between two black guys!

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          • #35
            Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
            Most people don't care and never will, so even if there is an attempt at planned obsolescence by hardware manufacturers, Google fucked them sideways with their app system where apps can just target the lowest common denominator and work fine anywhere.
            That is anecdotal and irrelevant to the point I was making - which was there are millions of people walking around without current security updates on their phone because of the current paradigm.
            Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
            With their current pricing, it's still cheaper to buy a new Android device.
            That may have been the case previously, but with the latest Pixel - Google has appeared to have abandoned the Nexus pricing strategy.
            Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
            This is mostly the hardware manufacturer's issue, not Android's.
            Actually, it is Android's because they created this mess.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by gbcox View Post
              That is anecdotal and irrelevant to the point I was making - which was there are millions of people walking around without current security updates on their phone because of the current paradigm.
              And I said fuck them. If they don't care enough to make the "it is kept updated" a feature that gives the product an edge over its competitors (which isn't "anedoctal", but a fact), then it's pointless to care about it on their behalf.

              I do care about it for me, but that just means there must be some source of Android hardware that can be kept reasonably updated, which means basically something I can slap LineageOS on (was Cyanogenmod back then) and use for a couple years.

              That may have been the case previously, but with the latest Pixel - Google has appeared to have abandoned the Nexus pricing strategy.
              I meant cheap non-Google Android devices. I can get decent smartphones with latest Android for like 150 euros max. Changing one per year is MUCH cheaper than getting a midrange one for 300-400 euros that will still not get any update anyway, or Google ones for 600+ that get updated a couple years at most.

              This is embedded market, the whole point is forcing you to keep buying stuff.

              Actually, it is Android's because they created this mess.
              Lol "created" ... the embedded market (mobile devices are still embedded devices) has always been like this, long before Android was a thing. Google had the choice to try to work around the fact that chip manufacturers provide a SDK with blobs preventing any meaningful OS update, or to go fuck itself because chip manufacturers won't change.

              So far, the only market where you have a decent amount of freedom about what you will do with your hardware is x86, and I'm not even joking. Embedded is hell.
              Last edited by starshipeleven; 26 August 2017, 03:41 PM.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
                And I said fuck them. If they don't care enough to make the "it is kept updated" a feature, then I's pointless to care about it.

                I do care about it for me, but that just means there must be some source of Android hardware that can be kept reasonably updated, which means basically something I can slap LineageOS on (was Cyanogenmod back then) and use for a couple years.
                Well the problem of course is when someone comes out with a virus that attacks all these phones, and then it will become obvious just how much Google has created a nightmare with Android (if it isn't already). As far as LineageOS, yes that is a good solution for people who understand how to install it, etc. - but if LineageOS can figure out how to update these phones there is absolutely no excuse for Google not to do the same. It's irresponsible IMO, and as I mentioned earlier the only reasoning I can come up for it is to force people to buy new hardware.

                Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
                I meant cheap non-Google Android devices. I can get decent smartphones with latest Android for like 150 euros max. Changing one per year is MUCH cheaper than getting a midrange one for 300-400 euros that will still not get any update anyway, or Google ones for 600+ that get updated a couple years at most.

                This is embedded market, the whole point is forcing you to keep buying stuff.
                I agree, but IMO that is really irresponsible on Google's part - which was the point of my original comment. So basically they are encouraging a throw away society and adding to the e-waste problem. I completely understand why people would want to get a new phone every 2 or 3 years, or whatever. What I was pointing out was it was irresponsible for Google to have created an ecosystem where people are being forced to buy new hardware every 2 or 3 years if they want to keep current security updates.
                Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
                Lol "created" ... the embedded market (mobile devices are still embedded devices) has always been like this, long before Android was a thing. Google had the choice to try to work around the fact that chip manufacturers provide a SDK with blobs preventing any meaningful OS update, or to go fuck itself because chip manufacturers won't change.

                So far, the only market where you have a decent amount of freedom about what you will do with your hardware is x86, and I'm not even joking. Embedded is hell.
                Yes, the embedded market is just a time-bomb waiting to go off - it's unconscionable, but Google had the opportunity to change that model with phones and so far they haven't and there is no indication AFAIK that they will. The media and the fanboys just make the problem worse by cheerleading and normalizing this transparently atrocious behaviour. The media should be calling out Google for this and writing stories about how many people are walking around with vulnerable phones. Instead we get fluff stories about each new android version which requires most people to go out and buy new hardware.



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                • #38
                  Originally posted by gbcox View Post
                  Well the problem of course is when someone comes out with a virus that attacks all these phones, and then it will become obvious just how much Google has created a nightmare with Android (if it isn't already). As far as LineageOS, yes that is a good solution for people who understand how to install it, etc. - but if LineageOS can figure out how to update these phones there is absolutely no excuse for Google not to do the same. It's irresponsible IMO, and as I mentioned earlier the only reasoning I can come up for it is to force people to buy new hardware.
                  Cm/lineageos are able to update these phones, but if you've ever participated in contributing, you would know there are a ton of caveats to supporting legacy devices... things like having to forward port insecure features that have been dropped from android (like the one process media server that lacks seccomp integration), or having to add all sorts of hardware shims for blobs... backporting kernel features, but only getting partial support, in some cases... they do a great job, given the circumstances, but it's a tricky thing ... and there is no money in google or vendors supporting devices for 5yrs.


                  Originally posted by gbcox View Post
                  I agree, but IMO that is really irresponsible on Google's part - which was the point of my original comment. So basically they are encouraging a throw away society and adding to the e-waste problem. I completely understand why people would want to get a new phone every 2 or 3 years, or whatever. What I was pointing out was it was irresponsible for Google to have created an ecosystem where people are being forced to buy new hardware every 2 or 3 years if they want to keep current security updates.
                  Are they though? I mean project Treble would indicate google is trying to change the upgrade path for android, abstracting away the hardware making android easier to upgrade for longer... I think more of the blame rests on OEMs like Qualcomm, who use an linux-LTS that is usually near EOL and they never try to support a new kernel... I mean even my pixel is linux-3.18 (albeit with many backports), but really it would be better if Qualcomm would push out a newer kernel for my device, that would help ensure that if android was relying on some new kernel feature (in the future), the support would be there. (Unlike all of the old linux-3.4 devices that will never be able to support Nougat or Oreo+).

                  Anyhoo, it's a pretty complicated ecosystem. Hopefully, with Project Treble and other initiatives newer devices will start to have better upgrade paths for longer... it won't change the fact that most people want a new phone after 2yrs though.

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                  • #39
                    Look at what's now a 5-year-old high end phone. High end display ("only" a 720p, but it's sharp), good enough specs : dual core, 1GB RAM, 16GB flash, not too much different than some current stuff, removable battery. This Korean one can get LineageOS. Official price about 500 euros or dollars in 2012. It seems to beat a current 100 euro phone : about the same specs (less cores, but well) but the display and build quality are better on the old thing.

                    So.. high-end ish stuff would be possibly cheaper than low/mid end stuff, if supported.
                    As I wouldn't do much nuclear simulations or video editing on a "phone" I would be asking for a low/mid range SoC but well supported. High end 720p or 1080p display, high end build quality (but with the features found even on dumbphones i.e. removable battery, jack and SD), mediocre specs (enough RAM, enough camera to be able to read a street sign or something otherwise I don't care) and ability to buy spare parts easily and on my continent.

                    I would like to buy a 200 euro phone with 150 or 120 euro specs like that, if that were to be possible.

                    Why does Apple sell so much crap? ("phones" and computers). That's because they sell to the not well off as well, imo. Students and working class. Some keep an iMac past the point of no OS and security updates.
                    It's known-good stuff, reliable or should be, you can even get it fixed.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by grok View Post
                      Why does Apple sell so much crap? ("phones" and computers). That's because they sell to the not well off as well, imo. Students and working class. Some keep an iMac past the point of no OS and security updates.
                      Many people buy nearly or fully unsupported Apple stuff too (x86 or phones) for relatively low but still ridicolous prices on used marketplaces like ebay, and Apple stuff has an insane used resale value (i.e. thief magnet).

                      But I really doubt Apple sells to "not well-off", I've yet to find some not-well-off that can afford multiple thousands of dollars for a laptop. You probably underestimate the number of well-off-enough.

                      It's known-good stuff, reliable or should be, you can even get it fixed.
                      Its mostly all in their minds. macOS can go to shit the same as Windows if the user is an idiot, that does not happen so soon or so fast because of the the far less amount of of malware/addware/bullshit for macOS (so the user, even if he is an idiot, can't fill his system of bullshit as fast as on Windows)

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