Originally posted by 0xBADCODE
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Building Linux With LLVM/Clang Excites The Embedded World
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Originally posted by intellivision View PostAlso, your throw in about BSD systems and the Apache Foundation are unwarranted and unrelated.
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Originally posted by dee. View PostNothing personal - I would bash any other patent troll just the same.
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Originally posted by 0xBADCODE View PostPerfectly fair to my taste: if you want to use someone's shared job results, share your own job results as well. Else you're clearly a parasite
The problem with the GPL is that it's 'The GPL way', or no way at all, at the expense of other copyleft licenses.
Also, your throw in about BSD systems and the Apache Foundation are unwarranted and unrelated.
However, if you do want something to think about, Apache Openoffice has gotten 40 million downloads to date of version 3.4, not bad for 'toxic waste'
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Originally posted by 0xBADCODE View PostYou see, while BSDs are showing us how EPIC FAIL looks like, GPLed Linux managed to get strong.
Don't be a hypocrite, remove those software from your Linux system and tell us again how strong your GPLed Linux is.
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I wasn't saying that the BSD license was better, don't misunderstand me. Companies have very legitimate concerns for the GPL-- if you have a programmer looking at GPL code, learns something new from that GPL code, and then uses that new idea (but not the exact code itself) in the companies product..does that qualfiy for the GPL's "Derived" clause? Maybe yes, maybe no, I dont think its ever been contested in court.
Over all, I think most companies who contribute back to BSD do so either out of good will, quid-pro-quo ness, or maintenance burden. Because when you have a lot of out-of-tree patches it becomes a big deal to maintain them all on your own, its easier to push them back to usptream and then just let upstream maintain them for you.
For the most part I think the best idea is to 'default' your license to LGPL (nice middle ground. The parts they took from YOU they have to keep open, including changes, but their own custom code can be whatever they want.)
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Originally posted by Ericg View PostTechnically speaking the GPL IS viral and IS a bit like a cancer-- one tiny little library that does something cool can force the GPL onto other projects if they use it.
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Originally posted by erendorn View PostLOOOL so much irony in this post
I though that GPL was about being "viral", and forcing "freedom" onto people?
The reality is the BSD style license "Here's code, I dont care what you do with it." is the MOST free license available, because it has zero restrictions or conditions or strings. But it does carry the danger of a company coming along, taking the code, making it better, and shipping a closed source program using that code without contributing anything back.
And from that concern came the GPL-- "Here's code, do whatever you want with it, modify the crap out of it for all I care, but if you distribute a program to other people then you have to make it open source so that others can benefit." And that distribute part is key-- if a company takes a GPL library, modifies it, but keeps the modifications internally-- ergo they dont show it to the outside world and keep it within the company-- then they dont have to open source it.
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Originally posted by LightBit View PostBut still perform worse than AMD open source and Nouveau, because their GPUs suck.Last edited by 0xBADCODE; 10 March 2013, 06:03 PM.
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Originally posted by stiiixy View PostI think you'r emissing a critical piece of the logic of your own argument. If AMD DIDN'T try out LVM, they would have never know, and now the whole world knows a little bit more that, at least an older version, LLVM isn't the be all and end all of compilation and GCC pretty much is for the time being.
As for me it looks like decisions/design phase fault: guys used LLVM due to buzz around, failing to understand it's a troublesome way. It's not even LLVM fault on it's own. It's VLIW and it requires custom approach. LLVM knows nothing about VLIW existence and does not really helps to deal with things like this. Instead it makes things more complicated (as it's generic solution intended to handle dozen of unneeded scenarios), raises bar for those who wants to enter development, requires upstream syncs, etc, etc and ... and at the end of day it FAILS TO PROVIDE REASONABLE PERFORMANCE (and why anybody needs 3D driver with crappy performance, huh?). You see, Vadim has managed to seriously improve FPS on custom code generator because it's simple. If there was LLVM on it's place it would be unlikely as it reqires far more time to get same results.
And the worst of all: it could be evaluated qickly. It's fairly predictable. Sure, AMD currently haves awful management issues, but this partucular stubborness is just hard to explain. They literally WASTED YEARS without anyhow usable outcome which can provide user-visible values. What about efforts to results ratio? And why some quite inactive dev could come, quickly improve OLD code and beat all this LLVM idiocy to the hell in terns of performance? Without wasting years of hard work, spending months on waiting upstream, etc. It's just a drastic demonstration of what happens when someone decides to "improve these damn user-visible results" rather than "use LLVM" (or whatever else crap you have).
Let's just make some quote:
I spent some time last year studying the LLVM infrastructure and R600
LLVM backend and trying to improve it, but after all I came to the
conclusion that for me it might be easier to implement all that I wanted
in the custom backend.
P.S. ah, they mumble LLVM needed for opencl. But looks like if they fail to understand that nobody needs SLOW opencl implementation. It's just pointless. Either you can roll out OPTIMIZED implementation or you would waste potential of hardware and lose the market.Last edited by 0xBADCODE; 10 March 2013, 05:46 PM.
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