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Framework Laptop 16 Delivers Great Linux Support & Performance, Excellent Customizability

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Chugworth View Post
    You can make the case for ECC RAM on a server, which runs the same software constantly and you want an absolute minimal chance of crashing or data corruption. But on a system for user interaction (especially a laptop), you're FAR more likely to encounter a crash and/or lose data from buggy software or consumer-grade hardware than experience an incorrect bit on otherwise good memory. That's the reason why there hasn't been a bigger push for ECC memory on consumer devices. It doesn't bring enough benefit to justify the added expense.
    The fact that ALL DDR5 dies have on-die ECC kind of nullifies your point...
    Note that is not the whole module which has ECC. The pathways to/from the DIMM are not covered.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Serafean View Post

      The fact that ALL DDR5 dies have on-die ECC kind of nullifies your point...
      Note that is not the whole module which has ECC. The pathways to/from the DIMM are not covered.
      It doesn't. RAM just comes to a point right now that some very simple form of ECC is needed. But that's also only support in the RAM module. For anything else you'd need support in the SoC.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by varikonniemi View Post
        That seems extremely weird results. Because same chip in 2 different products produce so wildly different results, and the difference is not just in one direction (what higher clock, better cooling could explain) but instead are opposite in many tests. How is this possible?
        The Framework 16 has very good cooling.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by royce View Post
          The Framework 16 has very good cooling.
          Probably but it doesn't explain why the FW 16 is slower on 3D load than the Tuxedo.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Chugworth View Post
            You can make the case for ECC RAM on a server, which runs the same software constantly and you want an absolute minimal chance of crashing or data corruption.
            For a server, especially a file server, ECC is critical because data can remain cached in RAM for days or even weeks. So the expected bitflip in 8% of DIMMs per year will very likely affect something important. This has nothing to do with the software that runs on it.

            Originally posted by Chugworth View Post
            But on a system for user interaction (especially a laptop), you're FAR more likely to encounter a crash and/or lose data from buggy software or consumer-grade hardware than experience an incorrect bit on otherwise good memory.
            Not true. A malicious actor can provoke bit flips e.g. with Rowhammer (also a JavaScript implementation exists, rowhammer.js), even if the software and hardware is otherwise running perfectly to spec. ECC (or memory encryption) are the last lines of defense against Rowhammer.

            Even in the absence of malicious actors, if the computer handles data that you cannot afford to become corrupted, then you want ECC. A single bitflip in a jPEG file can totally ruin it, and by the time you notice (because its thumbnail is less likely to be affected) it may be too late and the corruption has spread to backups.

            Originally posted by Chugworth View Post
            That's the reason why there hasn't been a bigger push for ECC memory on consumer devices. It doesn't bring enough benefit to justify the added expense.
            That is wrong. As Linus Torvalds pointed out, it is because consumers are not informed any better.

            Originally posted by Serafean View Post
            The fact that ALL DDR5 dies have on-die ECC kind of nullifies your point...
            No, in this case Chugworth is correct. It is because DRAM is going to be more like Flash memory. Flash memory does not contain your data, it contains only a probabilistic approximation of your data. This is orthogonal to the question of protecting the communication between memory controller and memory with ECC.
            ‚Äč

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            • #36
              Reading this, the iFixIt teardown, etc. has me personally drooling at this machine and I'm definitely upgrading to a Framework laptop next time I upgrade.

              Which is why its such a shame they don't sell to northern Europe and there isn't a Scandinavian keyboard available. Still, if I was burglarized and all my laptops got stolen I'd just gray market import one with the blank ISO keyboard without batting an eye.

              Kind of interesting how this uses liquid metal instead of the usual thermal paste. However that does mean you don't have to replace it ever few years unless you want temperatures to go up. Similarity I'd be interesting if this used CAMM modules for instead of the old SO-DIMM standard, but that'd obviously bump up the price and lower the availability of replacement RAM.
              Last edited by L_A_G; 24 January 2024, 08:40 AM.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Artim View Post

                It's good they didn't. Those are notoriously breaking in no time. It would just be an unnecessary point of failure.
                LOL. You are waaaaaaay more likely to destroy the port, or worse, FUBAR the motherboard with a giant dongle sticking out if the laptop falls, which itself is more likely since something can get caught on that monstrosity.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by pWe00Iri3e7Z9lHOX2Qx View Post

                  LOL. You are waaaaaaay more likely to destroy the port, or worse, FUBAR the motherboard with a giant dongle sticking out if the laptop falls, which itself is more likely since something can get caught on that monstrosity.
                  I work in an IT department and we have never had a broken motherboard, period. But we had a few of those flimsy LAN ports broken just 2 weeks after deploying new Thinkpads to our users and those LAN ports only get used by a minority, basically everyone that used those also broke them.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Anux View Post
                    I work in an IT department and we have never had a broken motherboard, period. But we had a few of those flimsy LAN ports broken just 2 weeks after deploying new Thinkpads to our users and those LAN ports only get used by a minority, basically everyone that used those also broke them.
                    I worked in IT also, and I'll verify this. There are users that can break almost anything exposed, and crash any software. We called them "hands of death"

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by pWe00Iri3e7Z9lHOX2Qx View Post

                      LOL. You are waaaaaaay more likely to destroy the port, or worse, FUBAR the motherboard with a giant dongle sticking out if the laptop falls, which itself is more likely since something can get caught on that monstrosity.
                      With a regular USB C to Ethernet adapter sure. But not the way it's implemented here. That's mechanically just very unlikely.

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