Lenovo Flex 5G / Qualcomm SC8180x Support Being Worked On For Mainline Linux

[robclark]

Hi, any elaboration on how come ARM-based computers can't get basic boot support out of the box?

They generally can, using ACPI and UEFI.. at least once basic SoC support is in place. That should get you basic input/output/storage/usb/efifb.. The need for devicetree for more advanced stuff is because linux doesn't support PEP (basically a SoC driver that understand the clock trees, power domains, and how to do interconnect and ddr scaling). (That is a slight oversimplification, there are a lot of various kernel frameworks that are heavily DT based, and would need some work to support ACPI, like on the display side the bridge/panel frameworks, but I guess there are others as well.)

Also, note that the apple laptops are also using DT.

Fwiw, I found out the other day that lenovo added a bios option to the x13s to load a dt to simplify the generic linux distro boot-flow.

[t.s.]

Okay, so according to you guys, the stupidity comes from:

1) The integrated chips are too integrated and can't perform minimal boot up if one don't get every niche part of them ready or tamed, unlike what we usually do in x86/x64 platform, i.e. leave those not-yet-supported driver-or-firmware-lacking modules or chips uninitialized and stay disabled, just boot up the parts we understand

2) The tight vertical integration from the smartphone era make manufacturers be habited of their lack of consistent backward compatible interface across each generation of chips. They did make sure they submitted enough stuff to Microsoft so that Windows can boot up in those new ARM-based Windows laptops. But since Windows are now "pre-installed", they don't need to care boot compatibility like the older days when users might buy a computer + a box copy of Windows, and require the Windows to be able to at least boot up, then install the drivers later.

My take:
1) Not a problem if they open the source code. But they choose not to. Mediatek is well-known to get-use-modify gpl code without credit and not contributing back.
2) Not because vertical integration, more because it's conditioned to one-time use thingies. They're hoping that you use the gadget, and when it's too slow or if there's something broken, you just discard it and buy a new one. Like smartphone. Like Macbook M1--M1 advantage is having longer supported duration and better built quality.

[t.s.]

The Mac Book is different beast. You're guaranteed sales in millions and official Apple support (for the Mac platform) for 5+ years. Those devices will stick around for a long, long time and they will have a sizeable audience. Their performance is also in a different dimension compared to these Windows toys.

Just one major disadvantages: The storage is soldered down. You cannot swap or upgrade it. Typical of Apple.

[t.s.]

I would not buy either the Dell or the Lenovo, the processor is obsolete crap. Only in 2024 there will be the 8cx Gen4 which is competitive and supports AV1 decode.

I have other reasons not buying from them.

• Dell is notorious for limiting CPU speed or cut off the charging when you're not using their PSU.
• Lenovo likes to whitelisting their Wifi, WWAN card (in accordance to FCC maybe?) and proprietary power jack. So you have to source the cards from them, or go ebay route. Kinda understand why they do that: they're Chinese firms now, not like HP or Dell (US). Surely they don't want to have similar fate with Huawei.
• Now almost everything is soldered.

The least broken is HP. They just whitelisting the WWAN. But you still have non-whitelisted wifi card, and have two slot RAM.

[t.s.]

I believe the fex-emu devs all use the X13 as their main platform.

What I'm wondering is why Qualcomm didn't upstream support for their X55 modem themselves?

Well, it's Qualcomm! Or you can say, almost all (if not all) ARM hardware manufacturer works like this: they just give you the blob. For at least 1 or 2 linux version.

[tunnelblick]

I would not buy either the Dell or the Lenovo, the processor is obsolete crap. Only in 2024 there will be the 8cx Gen4 which is competitive and supports AV1 decode.

It always depends on what you need. If you want to have a silent machine for email and light web browsing, why not?

[chithanh]

https://fudzilla.com/news/pc-hardwar...ful-arm-laptop

That looks interesting, hopefully we will see more of that.

In general, as the article mentions the x13s again, what's the current state of the linux port to that device? I know there's some kernel support but in a real world example what works and what does not?

I would not buy either the Dell or the Lenovo, the processor is obsolete crap. Only in 2024 there will be the 8cx Gen4 which is competitive and supports AV1 decode.

[billyswong]

Okay, so according to you guys, the stupidity comes from:

1) The integrated chips are too integrated and can't perform minimal boot up if one don't get every niche part of them ready or tamed, unlike what we usually do in x86/x64 platform, i.e. leave those not-yet-supported driver-or-firmware-lacking modules or chips uninitialized and stay disabled, just boot up the parts we understand

2) The tight vertical integration from the smartphone era make manufacturers be habited of their lack of consistent backward compatible interface across each generation of chips. They did make sure they submitted enough stuff to Microsoft so that Windows can boot up in those new ARM-based Windows laptops. But since Windows are now "pre-installed", they don't need to care boot compatibility like the older days when users might buy a computer + a box copy of Windows, and require the Windows to be able to at least boot up, then install the drivers later.

[tunnelblick]

Hi, any elaboration on how come ARM-based computers can't get basic boot support out of the box?

To my best knowledge there are a few things:

1. Secure Boot

This is done on ARM laptops we are seeing from Dell, Lenovo and such. Sometimes it can't even be disabled or it is hidden.

2. Devce Trees

It seems that to boot an ARM device properly you have to set the hardware bits in a file called device tree. There you set the location of the hardware and, if necessary, also the firmware file, which *also* has to be available. Sometimes this is part of the linux-firmware package, often it is not. So getting that firmware is *also* an obstacle.
Then to load the firmware you *also* have to sometimes write code around it so it can properly load on linux because these devices are not built to be run with linux in mind. They are connected via different busses for example or sometimes are completely new so you have to deal with linux maintainers when you introduce new hardware or new ways to integrate existing hardware in a different way. And dealing with linux maintainers is a pandora's box of drama, see marcan's posts and how he exposes this linux ml drama to mastodon (not that I am a fan of that, to be honest but it seems to be his shtick nowadays to complain openly which results into even more drama).

[curfew]

Hi, any elaboration on how come ARM-based computers can't get basic boot support out of the box?

I would assume it's because these Windows-focused ARM laptops are a joke and nobody wants to waste their time in trying to make them run Linux. The chips are pretty complicated as they integrate most of the previously independent stuff spread around a motherboard directly into the "CPU chip" itself, and unless you get everything to work at once, your system just won't boot at all. And even after the initial pain of making everything "work", you would be crippled by poor power management and abysmal GPU performance.

Whereas on x86 most things are standardized to some extent, every ARM chip is black box of proprietary stuff that's different between all chips. Manufacturers won't offer any support at all so independent developers have to reverse engineer everything.

Okay, you find some hypertalented individual who has the ability to take time off and make one model of laptops work. Then what? That laptop sold maybe a few thousand units and has been discontinued after 12 months. You can't find it anywhere, and even if you could, the poor specs and performance means you won't want to use it for many years to come. Nobody will benefit of your work and your investment will never pay back in any meaningful way.

The Mac Book is different beast. You're guaranteed sales in millions and official Apple support (for the Mac platform) for 5+ years. Those devices will stick around for a long, long time and they will have a sizeable audience. Their performance is also in a different dimension compared to these Windows toys.