Many Linux Developers Are Ecstatic Over Fedora On Lenovo Systems

[andyprough]

AFAIK there's no graphical way to seamlessly upgrade Fedora N to N+1 or N+2. Running dnf in console is not what people expect from an OS in 2020.

I sure hope those same people who melt in fear over having to type 'sudo dnf system-upgrade reboot' don't spend a huge wad of money on a Fedora laptop.

[andyprough]

A secure, fast, free OS and bloated, slow, insecure, spying crap. What should I choose?

You are right - you need something with Void Linux pre-installed or antiX, so you can avoid all that systemd bloat.

[Nocifer]

Linux preinstalled sounds amazing until you realize that there are some crazy unresolved issues with it:

• Fedora features new releases each nine months and AFAIK there's no graphical way to seamlessly upgrade Fedora N to N+1 or N+2. Running dnf in console is not what people expect from an OS in 2020.
• GRUB/kernel/Xorg/GDM/Gnome updates can make system unbootable/unusable (it's relatively rare but it happens) - there's no way to boot into some sort of safe environment and fix/revert the recent changes to fix your system. Recovery mode exists but it boots you into the text console which is alien to absolute most people out there. Or, in case GRUB is broken, there's no way to recover at all except booting from recovery media.
• These laptops with come with secure UEFI boot mode on which means the user will not be able to use applications like VirtualBox or VMWare Workstation unless the user disables secure boot which is not really good.
• In other OSes GUI sees less drastic changes less often and in Linux, specially in Gnome, it may make people feel uncomfortable.
• And the biggest of the issues is that there's a lot more software and games for Windows than for Linux.

It's all IMO and you may disagree with that but everything that I've written is based on my experience of using Linux exclusively for more than two decades.

• Personally I don't really like the "upgrade your whole system to a new release every X months" Linux model (that's why I've been using a rolling distro since forever) but updating Fedora via a GUI tool, as the others have mentioned, is really easily done nowadays with the Gnome Software Center.
• You mean how Windows updates can sometimes render the system unbootable or leave it with severe problems? Yeah, it's relatively rare, but it happens. Also, I'll be damned if you can find me even one average Joe (i.e. "most people out there") who can readily fix a Windows system by booting into a safe environment and going through the recovery process all by themselves, without asking for help from a more experienced person or sending their PC to a repair center.
• Do you mean that secure boot makes Linux systems unable to use VMs? Is this a limitation of Linux only? Or a limitation of secure boot? Is it something that concerns the average Joe?
• You mean how Windows 10 makes people uncomfortable by being a total mess when it comes to its UI, because even 5 years after the initial release its developers are still not finished with drastically changing it, and they still have one half of the system using the new UI and the other half using the old UI? Or maybe you mean how Windows 8 wasn't a drastic redesign of the Windows UI paradigm, like the Gnome 3 one was?
• That's the #1 "limitation" of Linux as an OS and it's been known since ages, but it has nothing to do with Linux itself but rather with the companies producing said software and games. And indeed, despite this "limitation", nowadays Linux is much more capable of satisfying the needs of the average Joe when it comes to software and games (what with Steam, Proton, Vulkan, Krita, Reaper & Bitwig for pro audio, et al) than it has ever been historically, even a scant few years ago. It's even managed to carve a niche for itself in some areas (e.g. with Blender, which is fast becoming the go-to tool in the 3D industry). And with cloud gaming and the 5th generation of consoles on the horizon, things are looking rather good on this front.

IMHO, what really matters is that we make sure Linux is rock solid and that it only breaks as often as or hopefully even less often than Windows 10, which currently serves as the golden standard of what is accepted as "part of life" and what is not in the mind of the average Joe. If we can make sure that Linux is not perceived as being more broken than Windows (key word is "perceived") then we're set for success. But guess what: we're mostly already there.

As for the available tools to fix a broken system, they do not matter as long as they can do their job, and even then they only matter to the technical people who will be performing the repairs, and any repair guy worth their salt will tell you that Linux is miles ahead with its CLI tools than Windows with its "graphical way". Even giving an average Joe instructions is much easier on Linux (open terminal, type sequence of commands, press Enter) than on Windows (click this, click that, click that other one while pressing Shift to run with admin privileges, click here, click there, click Next, restart, restart again, etc etc ad nauseam).

[Schugy]

An Ideapad with APU is more than enough for me. If other vendors offer LVFS for notebooks in the same price range I might switch.

[Volta]

You are right - you need something with Void Linux pre-installed or antiX, so you can avoid all that systemd bloat.

After switching to Fedora I'm not looking at alternatives right now*. I don't even notice systemd in any negative way and it's much better experience than sysVinit and upstart. However, Void Linux is using another one which I didn't try, but - *.

[Zan Lynx]

It is true that you cannot load compiled, unsigned modules for Nvidia, VMware, VirtualBox, etc, if you use Secure Boot. Unless you go to a lot of hassle to add your own Secure Boot signature and sign your modules which is probably not worth the effort.

For virtual machines you can use KVM which is built into Linux. There's Gnome Boxes (which I personally hate, but it is "easy" to use. No features, but easy.). Or there's virt-manager which can do everything the others do, although you have to download the Win10 driver ISO yourself, it isn't automatic.

[reavertm]

What else would you be using for development anyway? Thinkpad T is still the go-to solution for anything serious about mobile and Fedora is the best distro for development. I only sidestep Fedora because Fedora sidesteps KDE.

Fedora might sidestep KDE from ideological pov but does not from technical one. Do you just return the favour?
KDE is reasonably well packaged in Fedora. I never installed Fedora with anything but KDE, works pretty well. Not as flexible as KDE in Gentoo but very decent.

[Paradigm Shifter]

This is good. I'm pleased for those who use Fedora.

I am reminded, however, that Lenovo has something of a history of putting security wrecking spyware (Superfish) and other stuff that is damned close to malware on their laptops, since IIRC it hid in the UEFI and reinstalled itself if you wiped the OS. I wonder if they will do something similar here, or did they learn their lesson?

Nothing changes for those who prefer a different distro, however.

Manjaro recently pulled off something of a similar coup with getting Manjaro installed on Pinebook Pros?

...

I've had nVidia 3rd party (binary blob) drivers working fine on a SecureBoot enabled laptop. It wasn't horribly painful to get working. I needed CUDA, and at the time I was dual booting Windows 8.1 which freaked out and whined at you every time it loaded if you didn't have SecureBoot enabled. I've got the instructions somewhere; worked with Mint 18, but Mint 19 was a little more temperamental about it. I'll try to find them, if only for curiosity.

[yro84]

well, i see that people are still on these crap fights about "linux is better"... and continue to ignore that majority of use case we talk is users and/or personal/local business.. for that matters linux is way too problematic as of the updates goes, the bootloader problems, the lack of good choices about microsoft office/adobe/corel/etc... but in my opinion, the biggest problem is the videocard drivers that works better on windows on nvidia and on amd.. i pay my hard money on my machine and i want it work to with with its full potential.. on linux, majority of times thats not the case.. so, why botter using linux anyway if windows 10 is "free" (hwid or kms) and i can have all of its fruits just clicking "next next next ok"? <<< thats what ive always hear people say.. the history repeats for about 20 years..

[Paradigm Shifter]

well, i see that people are still on these crap fights about "linux is better"... and continue to ignore that majority of use case we talk is users and/or personal/local business.. for that matters linux is way too problematic as of the updates goes, the bootloader problems, the lack of good choices about microsoft office/adobe/corel/etc... but in my opinion, the biggest problem is the videocard drivers that works better on windows on nvidia and on amd.. i pay my hard money on my machine and i want it work to with with its full potential.. on linux, majority of times thats not the case.. so, why botter using linux anyway if windows 10 is "free" (hwid or kms) and i can have all of its fruits just clicking "next next next ok"? <<< thats what ive always hear people say.. the history repeats for about 20 years..

Thank you for your constructive input.