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The $199 Pinebook Pro ARM Laptop Is Closer To Running On The Mainline Linux Kernel

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  • #11
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

    Pine as company historically has never increased price of a product. Just with the distruptions in china and thinking their stuff is made in china they have some supply line issues.



    This is not understanding some basics. The reality is even major OEM like Acer, Dell, HP.... solve much less than half of the problem. So the work pine is doing is normal level. There is a reason why the result has not been as good.



    Its really simple to miss Pine Microcomputer strategy.

    Fun enough pinebook pro and rockpro64 are exactly the same soc chip. Why would something like this be important. Some that is simple to over look is the importance of sale volume. Microsoft with their windows mobile hit a brick wall of support due to low sales volume. If you look closely Pine Microcomputer is using 2 vendors of cpu being allwinner and rockchip this is so they can have two vendors fighting over the market share they have..



    There is a particular subset customers that will be happy with a incomplete product normally those wishing to develop/experiment or collectors. There are kind of important customers as they start giving volume of sales.

    Once you have volumes of sales you can then start asking your suppliers or parts like soc chips for things like upstream Linux kernel support.

    The hard reality is you cannot make a quality product as Windows Mobile found out if you don't have enough volume of sales that the companies providing you with parts will put in the effort to provide you with decent drivers.

    If you cannot get decent drivers from the upstream hardware makers you have two choices that are both horrible.
    1) Price your product at a non competitive price to cover cost of developers doing the driver development.
    2) Price your product at a competitive price and leave it to the end users/community to fix it.

    Remember you have to pick the path that you think will give you the most sales volume to improve your treatment by hardware vendors on future products.

    Also remember dell.... don't make Windows or Android either they out source this. The Windows the crapware offsetting cost of windows and the discounts they can get for mass purchases windows is effectively free to them. Android other than certification is basically free for Android makers. So there is really no room to add markup to cost to make the final interface complete.

    out-of-the-box (OOTB) is a really hard place to get to. Part of getting there is enough sales volume.
    Do you understand the phrase "...talking out of both sides of your mouth at the same time..."?

    Do you even know WHAT you're saying? We certainly don't.

    Just one example::
    "...This is not understanding some basics. The reality is even major OEM like Acer, Dell, HP.... solve much less than half of the problem. So the work pine is doing is normal level. There is a reason why the result has not been as good..."

    Precisely what basics do I, and legions upon legions of consumers OF PRODUCTS WHICH WORK AS THEY SHOULD, WHEN SOLD, not understand?
    So Acer, Dell, H-P, etc., do NOT sell machines which are ready to go, OOTB? What alternate reality do you come from?
    And Pine, by NOT selling a complete, ready-to-go product is "NORMAL LEVEL" (whatever that means)?

    One last one--
    "...There is a reason why the result has not been as good..."

    As good as what?
    What, EXACTLY, is YOUR rationale as to why the reason (whatever "reason" YOU'RE talking about) has not been as good..."

    One last thing--
    Don't get excited by all the 'up-votes': they're obviously from fanboys whose reasoning is as convoluted as yours.

    Comment


    • #12
      Originally posted by danmcgrew View Post
      Do you understand the phrase "...talking out of both sides of your mouth at the same time..."?
      Yes I do but that is not what I am doing.

      Originally posted by danmcgrew View Post
      Precisely what basics do I, and legions upon legions of consumers OF PRODUCTS WHICH WORK AS THEY SHOULD, WHEN SOLD, not understand?
      The horrible cases is how much consumers miss that the vendor has not completed. Its like you general android phone you look at the Linux kernel version inside and you will normally see a SoC vendor kernel that has not been updated and is basically security disaster. There is a big difference between work as they should and looking like they work like they should. Over 90% of the products that people say are OOTB under closer inspection are only look like they work as they should with multi things broken. Same with your chipset drivers on x86 hardware I remember the hell people had with intel atom pc and powervr graphics.

      Basically well polished turds. This is not what pine is doing. Instead they are going the road of not attempting to hide the issues.

      Originally posted by danmcgrew View Post
      So Acer, Dell, H-P, etc., do NOT sell machines which are ready to go, OOTB?
      This is generally true they don't in the general consumer market. Its like having to remove the included so called free anti-virus that in 90 days will fail and prevent the windows anti-virus from work so leaving you using a computer with your security pants down or in fact locking the device to security out of date drivers to hide a bad batch chipset.


      Originally posted by danmcgrew View Post
      And Pine, by NOT selling a complete, ready-to-go product is "NORMAL LEVEL" (whatever that means)?
      The normal level I was referring was not the quality of the product. But the amount of time per product the ODM/OEM can invest. The amount pine is investing is the normal level of time per product compared to dell and everyone else. Of course there is a direct disadvantage starting out SoC chips that don't have all the support they should out the box.

      Ready to-go product is not current provided level in the consumer electronics space for PC or Phones. The current level of provide is looks ready to-go while being highly security flawed and having you end users trained to reboot the machine in case of problem instead of absolutely expecting the machine to run without issues and truly be a Ready to-go product.

      Companies like Acer, Dell, H-P, etc. ship a lot of products they pray the silicon vendors do in fact some point in future provide update so it works right. Basically if it good enough that they believe it well sneak past a under educated consumer they ship it.

      https://www.pine64.org/2019/07/05/ju...-pinebook-pro/
      Please note the pinebook pro did in fact ship with OS installed so is a looks like OOTB product. Its less broken than the first generation

      So pinebook pro like it or not is a works out the box product with limitations. Most of the limitations come from third parties not providing support. We can expect the pinephone when its to the level that Pine microsystems thinks it ready for general consumers for them to release a works out box product with the high odds of it being a proper one not just I look to work out of the box.

      The Digital rights management support issues or the lack of development for running x86 binaries well these are not things on the pinebook pro that the OEM/ODM makes in most cases. The digital rights management issue is lack of volume of product out there so the support does not exist.

      Heck people buy 1500 dollar phones and inside 12 months find out they are getting no updates and Netflix don't work any more because there was not enough volume of sales to keep the Digital rights management certified.

      danmcgrew basically you need to step back and take a serous grain of salt with your point of view. Pine microsystems is starting to release looks like out of the box and is working to truly doing proper out of the box products. To get there has required getting volume of sales that Pine has mostly got enough now so can start branching out into general consumer products instead of just targeting developer/collector products and of course the start into general consumer is going to be bumpy at first with things like digital rights management stuff.

      Basically people need to put there expectations in alignment with what is possible. Yes you have a horrible multi level chicken and egg problems where you need volume of sales to get the support from silicon vendors and you cannot make a quality out of the box product without their support. Pine microsystems has been quite smart shipping to products targeting developer/collector first. This gets you past the first chicken and egg problem,

      Next comes your next chicken and egg problem of having enough deployed volume in the general and developer market spaces to get decent digital rights management support and finer functionality done like better x86 emulation. Of course to start building that market you cannot ship fully polished off product because the parts to make a fully polished of product don't exist until after you have shipped enough volume of the product.

      Why having all the drivers mainlined in the Linux kernel is a milestone here is it sign that they are getting past the first chicken and egg problem and now can start moving on to the second one.

      danmcgrew basically like it or not there are required steps to bring products to market successfully and with quality. One of those steps for a new company starting out is being willing to ship products targeting a subset of the market that will be tolerant to the issues to get your critical mass of market share with silicon vendors. Of course then you need to get critical mass in general consumer to finish the finer points off like digital rights management.

      Also the other problem pine microsystems has at the moment due to lack of volume of sales they really cannot get a decent priced warranty solution up and running so have to stick to the min 30 days coverage.

      Volume of sales majorly effects what a company can and cannot do over all Pine Microsystems is progressing though the required steps at a fairly decent pace.

      Remember Pine Microsystems only came into existence in 2016 they are less than a 4 year old company and they have enough volume now that parties supplying them with parts are willing to go to the effort to upstream their drivers to get the sale to them. This is doing very well to have close to fully works out of the box products in 4 years. Heck it was quite a pair of balls to go after making a phone. As long as they keep on growing their market share the quality of things they will be able product will increase some of it will come from the community as their market share grows and some of it will come from hardware vendors selling pine microsystems parts attempting to out do each other for the purchases/sales.

      Comment


      • #13
        I, for one, prefer to "vote" for products (which is to say, purchase) where all the expected-for-daily-driver-use hardware "Just Works (tm)". Allow me to define The Doctrine Of That Which "Just Works (tm)":
        • The wifi should work. The kernel module for this should be mainline.
        • If the keys have the ability to light up, then let the hardware buttons for this Just Work. Otherwise, don't even use keys which can light up, setting up a cruel disappointment. At least one of Gnome, KDE, or XFCE should have the code required for this keyboard lighting upstreamed. And this should be the default desktop installed with the laptop.
        • Same goes for hardware keys for volume up, down, and mute. If these buttons are labelled on the hardware, then let them Just Work, upstreamed into the desktop included.
        • The sound should Just Work (and not be too quiet, as was experienced on some Raspberry Pi's, through the 3.5mm jack). There should be no motherboard static interference in the sound. The kernel module for this should be mainline. All Sound Card abilities should be in the mixer applet in the tray (or tray equivalent).
        • The Display driver should just work, including video-out to drive an overhead projector with no bugs in the software experience of enabling and disabling this usage. If the 3D acceleration is coded for and upstreamed, great, maybe some small, Penguin-embellished decalling can say: "3D Accelerated" (as in, the software experience is thereby declared to be complete, and bug free). Otherwise, let it be understood that there is no assumption that this will work, ever. Just as there is no Santa Claus, so too, let us come out of our assumptions that a mythical 3D Acceleration fairy will put a mature graphics driver under our pillow some wonderful morning in the future.
        • The laptop should suspend and come out of suspension as expected, when the lid is closed and opened. And let this be mainlined and included in the default install.
        • The battery life as actually experienced should be good, if not great. Like upwards of 5 hours under fairly heavy usage.
        • The SD Card slot should Just Work. Mainlined.
        • The Webcam, if it exists, should Just Work. Mainlined.
        • The Battery Life indicator in the tray should similarly Just Work, and let it be upstreamed into the included desktop as above.
        • I think I've covered it all, but forgive me if I missed some common laptop hardware feature not listed above.
        Pine is free to sell whatever they want, but let them never claim that their hardware Just Works (tm). And then in conversations, geeks can ask each other, "hey, does that thing Just Work (tm)?" Based on the answer, they can make an informed decision before buying. If that hardware doesn't Just Work (tm), let it be called "Alpha-experience hardware", because that's what it is.

        That's the point of this rant. To help us use clear, agreed-upon terminology which cuts through the vaporous cloud of vague hopes for future stability in a software experience on a given piece of new, exotic hardware.


        PS: of course, my use of "tm" is tongue-in-cheek. I don't mean a literal TradeMark.

        PPS: Yes, I know that H-Node exists. My definition of "Just Works (tm)" is a little looser, as mainlined kernel drivers are merely a "should", not a must. Let Just-Working drivers at least be included by default (and be reasonably easy to install again, should a nuke-and-pave be necessary, the install experience being as good or better than is seen for NVidia proprietary drivers), is my point.
        Last edited by esbeeb; 03-01-2020, 10:11 PM.

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        • #14
          Originally posted by esbeeb View Post
          I, for one, prefer to "vote" for products (which is to say, purchase) where all the expected-for-daily-driver-use hardware "Just Works (tm)". Allow me to define The Doctrine Of That Which "Just Works (tm)":
          • The wifi should work. The kernel module for this should be mainline.
          • If the keys have the ability to light up, then let the hardware buttons for this Just Work. Otherwise, don't even use keys which can light up, setting up a cruel disappointment. At least one of Gnome, KDE, or XFCE should have the code required for this keyboard lighting upstreamed. And this should be the default desktop installed with the laptop.
          • Same goes for hardware keys for volume up, down, and mute. If these buttons are labelled on the hardware, then let them Just Work, upstreamed into the desktop included.
          • The sound should Just Work (and not be too quiet, as was experienced on some Raspberry Pi's, through the 3.5mm jack). There should be no motherboard static interference in the sound. The kernel module for this should be mainline. All Sound Card abilities should be in the mixer applet in the tray (or tray equivalent).
          • The Display driver should just work, including video-out to drive an overhead projector with no bugs in the software experience of enabling and disabling this usage. If the 3D acceleration is coded for and upstreamed, great, maybe some small, Penguin-embellished decalling can say: "3D Accelerated" (as in, the software experience is thereby declared to be complete, and bug free). Otherwise, let it be understood that there is no assumption that this will work, ever. Just as there is no Santa Claus, so too, let us come out of our assumptions that a mythical 3D Acceleration fairy will put a mature graphics driver under our pillow some wonderful morning in the future.
          • The laptop should suspend and come out of suspension as expected, when the lid is closed and opened. And let this be mainlined and included in the default install.
          • The battery life as actually experienced should be good, if not great. Like upwards of 5 hours under fairly heavy usage.
          • The SD Card slot should Just Work. Mainlined.
          • The Webcam, if it exists, should Just Work. Mainlined.
          • The Battery Life indicator in the tray should similarly Just Work, and let it be upstreamed into the included desktop as above.
          • I think I've covered it all, but forgive me if I missed some common laptop hardware feature not listed above.
          Very interesting list particarly when you put it over a pinebook and pinebook pro the horrible result is both of them in fact pass that list with flying colours. There are a lot of more expensive windows laptops that will not pass that list even dropping the Linux bits and having them running just with windows particularly the battery one both in duration and reporting.

          Originally posted by esbeeb View Post
          PPS: Yes, I know that H-Node exists. My definition of "Just Works (tm)" is a little looser, as mainlined kernel drivers are merely a "should", not a must. Let Just-Working drivers at least be included by default (and be reasonably easy to install again, should a nuke-and-pave be necessary, the install experience being as good or better than is seen for NVidia proprietary drivers), is my point.
          Yes this more open define. You need to use the strict must be mainline to rule out pinebook and pinebook pro being just works.
          https://haydenjames.io/pinebook-pro-...nd-setup-tips/
          Like it or not a pinebook pinebook pro passes should term.

          The thing to remember being just works does not mean it does not come with some limitations of features.

          Please note some of those raspberry pi with poor sound are fixed by re soldering on the 3.5 socket as the 3.5 socket on some raspberry pis have a dry joint on the earth pin providing high resistance so low sound. So nothing wrong with the design with some of them just a manufacturing error. This is how you can have something declared Just Works and still land a manufacturing error. Mine you the raspberry pi managed to do that constant dry joint for a complete batch in exactly the same way so at testing they were all performing exactly the same class of wrong and got straight past QA.

          Originally posted by esbeeb View Post
          Pine is free to sell whatever they want, but let them never claim that their hardware Just Works (tm).
          No I don't agree when what Pine Microsystems makes stuff that does in fact passes normal define of just works should have the right use those terms in those cases.

          Originally posted by esbeeb View Post
          Based on the answer, they can make an informed decision before buying. If that hardware doesn't Just Work (tm), let it be called "Alpha-experience hardware", because that's what it is.
          Pine uses two terms. "early adopters" and "single board".
          https://store.pine64.org/?product=pi...-early-adaptor
          Yes early adopter stuff comes with a stack of warning text that it going to be a alpha experience. Of course single board part you should be a developer/hobbist and know what the hell of a nightmare you are getting into..

          Originally posted by esbeeb View Post
          That's the point of this rant. To help us use clear, agreed-upon terminology which cuts through the vaporous cloud of vague hopes for future stability in a software experience on a given piece of new, exotic hardware.[/B]
          I do agree we do need to sort out the terminology. One thing that you were missing off your list is the means to run current versions of operating system and drivers. You do strike a lot of windows laptops that if you install the newer generic drivers for a bit of hardware that has security fixes that the driver does not work because they hacked a old version of the driver to work around a hardware defect and never updated it to fix security fault. This is common in windows laptop webcams and finger print readers. That right the finger printer that lets you windows laptop login at times can have a flaw that it will accept particular image as a universal key due to driver bug that is fixed in the newer version of the driver that you cannot apply to particular laptops because of a hardware flaw work around.

          I really don't like the idea of Just works. As in works good enough to fool the end user that the device works. Android devices shipping with insecure kernels or windows laptops shipping with known security flawed drivers both pass the just works list. I don't class this is works out of the box but as broken out of the box with no way of fixing. Basically we need to raise the bar here.

          Comment


          • #15
            Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
            Very interesting list particarly when you put it over a pinebook and pinebook pro the horrible result is both of them in fact pass that list with flying colours.
            Thanks for that! Didn't know. I stand corrected.

            Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
            I do agree we do need to sort out the terminology.
            If that's the only valuable point which I'm able to bring to the table, then I call this worthwhile enough for me to write that long-winded rant. Such universally agreed-upon terminology is a defense from every different vendor using their own home-cooked terminology which has devils hidden in various details.

            Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
            One thing that you were missing off your list is the means to run current versions of operating system and drivers.
            I guess that's a huge benefit for the drivers being mainlined (other than source code auditing/forking goodness): these drivers get to come along for the ride when new versions of the kernel are released (and hopefully some kernel maintainer or automated software regression checking prevents regressions).

            Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
            As in works good enough to fool the end user that the device works. Android devices shipping with insecure kernels or windows laptops shipping with known security flawed drivers both pass the just works list. I don't class this is works out of the box but as broken out of the box with no way of fixing. Basically we need to raise the bar here.
            Great point. Maybe my list needs to have the following added?
            • A GUI dialog should prompt the user to do a (simple-to-the-user) security update soon after the first network connection to the Internet is established. And security updates should Just Work (tm) for, say, at least 3 years from the time of purchase.
            I'd also like to add:
            • If 2D video acceleration works such that a fullscreen, native-resolution video with a popular video service like Youtube works at >= 60fps, then put a Penguin-embellished decal on the chassis, saying: "2D Accelerated" (as in, the software experience is thereby declared to be complete, and bug free).

            Comment


            • #16
              Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
              I really don't like the idea of Just works.
              OK, then what terminology would you propose? I would suggest a 4-Zebra system:
              • A Bronze Zebra can be on a decal on the chassis, or web advertisement, if it only fits what I called "Alpha-Experience Hardware". This zebra's stripes alternate bronze and black in color. The bronze has a matte finish. Black stripes, for all Zebras, always has a matte finish, never shiny. The Bronze color is noticeably darker than the gold, say, at least 20% darker.
              • A Silver Zebra can be on a decal on the chassis, or web advertisement, if it fits what I called "Just Works (tm)", (and of course a few more points might yet be fleshed out, which are similarly reasonable, and common-sensical as above). This zebra's stripes alternate silver and black in color. The silver has a matte finish, and is noticeably darker than the platinum, say 20% darker.
              • A Gold Zebra would be very rare: all-mainline kernel modules only, similar to how FSF certifies hardware. No proprietary blobs. Not even in the firmware for booting, etc. This zebra's stripes alternate gold and black in color. The gold is burnished, and shining.
              • A Platinum Zebra would be very, very rare: All-mainline kernel modules, which fully utilize all hardware features, which that hardware could possibly perform to. Like no further complaints about some latent hardware feature going under-utilized, or un-utilized are tenable (especially in video chips, when it comes to things like CUDA cores). User-programmable FPGAs, if they are present, must have open source tools available which can program the FPGAs. This would even act as assurance against things like the badly-soldered Raspberry Pi 3.5mm jack. This would be a trustworthy seal that this rig is the cat's pyjamas, full stop (that no Linux Geek in his right mind has any reason to complain about, for what that hardware is capable of). This zebra's stripes alternate platinum-ish and black in color. The platinum is burnished, and shining.
              Why a Zebra? Because a decal with a Zebra head would be eye-catching, having alternating stripes, similar to how a racing-flag (with a black-and-white checkerboard pattern) is very eye-catching. I consider a Zebra to be a neutral enough animal as well, just like the Penguin is a neutral-enough animal for a mascot. IoT devices, say using a Zephyr kernel, or other open-source firmware (which has something other than the Linux kernel) could also use this Zebra System. Also equivalently BSD-compatible hardware.

              What color is the Zebra's eye? Well, whatever color the vendor would like to use. They might want to use the color used in their own logo, to make the Zebra decal more matching their own branding. So on a Raspberry Pi, the eye could be Raspberry-red.
              Last edited by esbeeb; 03-02-2020, 03:36 AM.

              Comment


              • #17
                Originally posted by esbeeb View Post
                OK, then what terminology would you propose? I would suggest a 4-Zebra system:
                • A Bronze Zebra can be on a decal on the chassis, or web advertisement, if it only fits what I called "Alpha-Experience Hardware". This zebra's stripes alternate bronze and black in color. The bronze has a matte finish. Black stripes, for all Zebras, always has a matte finish, never shiny. The Bronze color is noticeably darker than the gold, say, at least 20% darker.
                • A Silver Zebra can be on a decal on the chassis, or web advertisement, if it fits what I called "Just Works (tm)", (and of course a few more points might yet be fleshed out, which are similarly reasonable, and common-sensical as above). This zebra's stripes alternate silver and black in color. The silver has a matte finish, and is noticeably darker than the platinum, say 20% darker.
                • A Gold Zebra would be very rare: all-mainline kernel modules only, similar to how FSF certifies hardware. No proprietary blobs. Not even in the firmware for booting, etc. This zebra's stripes alternate gold and black in color. The gold is burnished, and shining.
                • A Platinum Zebra would be very, very rare: All-mainline kernel modules, which fully utilize all hardware features, which that hardware could possibly perform to. Like no further complaints about some latent hardware feature going under-utilized, or un-utilized are tenable (especially in video chips, when it comes to things like CUDA cores). User-programmable FPGAs, if they are present, must have open source tools available which can program the FPGAs. This would even act as assurance against things like the badly-soldered Raspberry Pi 3.5mm jack. This would be a trustworthy seal that this rig is the cat's pyjamas, full stop (that no Linux Geek in his right mind has any reason to complain about, for what that hardware is capable of). This zebra's stripes alternate platinum-ish and black in color. The platinum is burnished, and shining.
                Why a Zebra? Because a decal with a Zebra head would be eye-catching, having alternating stripes, similar to how a racing-flag (with a black-and-white checkerboard pattern) is very eye-catching. I consider a Zebra to be a neutral enough animal as well, just like the Penguin is a neutral-enough animal for a mascot. IoT devices, say using a Zephyr kernel, or other open-source firmware (which has something other than the Linux kernel) could also use this Zebra System. Also equivalently BSD-compatible hardware.

                What color is the Zebra's eye? Well, whatever color the vendor would like to use. They might want to use the color used in their own logo, to make the Zebra decal more matching their own branding. So on a Raspberry Pi, the eye could be Raspberry-red.
                Sorry to say this plan is not going to cut it. Its possible to have Bronze Zebra like device but all it drivers be mainlined and really be like Platinum Zebra class in drivers.

                Between Silver and Gold there need to be a middle step on drivers. FSF no proprietary blobs is not always possible in wifi chips and the like due to having to pass regulation. Middle step would be all drivers mainline and the blobs if there are any are under a License that allows them to be shipped freely between users. They can still be proprietary blobs.

                Some ways it need to be 4 different categories with some subs .
                1) Security
                1.A) Marking that tell you clearly when is the end of support from the vendor for the include software basically best used before date for best security experience. Lot of current android devices would be a year before an early customer could have bought the device because that is when they in fact stopped working on the kernel with no plans for any updates.

                1.B) Status of driver support this need to have the following segmentation
                *0: IOT device with no possible updates and possible screwed to hell out the box.

                *1: Containers operating system required firmware or drivers that cannot be mainlined or shipped by Linux distribution or shipped by windows update for windows users this is stuff that can contain fix for X device only so is only downloadable from product website. This is bad hopefully the device is cheap. But this is a lot more common than one would wish.

                *2: Containers firmware or drivers that could be shipped by a Linux distribution repository or could shipped by windows update straight from upstream vendor with no unique tweaking for the drivers may not be mainline. Please note the word could not that it currently is. This is still not ideal but its way better than 1.

                *3: Users drivers that Linux distribution/s do ship those are listed and the maker is working on actively up-streaming those drivers. For windows devices the drivers included in Windows update not from third party website.

                *4: Drivers truly upstream with Linux and maintained.

                *4X As in drivers are mainline Linux kernel and no longer maintained by the vendor. This still could be a decent machine but you could have some security/stability issues needing work.


                Pinebook and Pinebook pro would be sitting at *3 at the moment working in the direction of *4 that don't include the information on how many years of maintenance is promised by the vendor/vendors. So we are a piece of information short.

                2) Usability status.
                Remember you could 10 years into the future and a *4 rating in security and still have the lowest rating here. Think single board computer with no software included.
                =0 Not ready to use out the box. Tinkering is required. Makers allowed to state that if you have skill to add X distribution/software that this board is =0 of the other ratings. Basically something with this 1 alone is going to be serous trouble.
                =1 Development alpha devices software is included crashes and miss behaviour should be expected at this time to the point that if you can run it more than 1 hour without something have a issue you are doing well. This alpha status is also for devices where you don't have full driver support for all included hardware.
                =2 Development beta device. This device should be mostly usable to the same kind of level as Windows 10 in fact but its not going to be 100 percent perfect all the time just like Windows 10.
                =4 Production ready device at device like this having issues should be exceptionally rare. This is what I class a properly working device that we rarely see.

                Like the current pinephone here would be =0 with =1/=2 based on added software. pinebook/pinebook pro would be =4.

                As you see these could be done like IP ratings next to a black and white logo.
                Remember it costs money to print colour packaging.

                Usability status on IOT not exactly sure how you would rate that think its control applications stuff needs to be in the mix. Maybe rating per support interface platform and directly by web to the IOT device.

                3) Repair ability. Remember again you could have perfect 4 in the ones before this and still fail this one.
                [0 Device not design to be repaired at all. Think ifixit repair rating under 5 possible 6 you get a zero here. Devices with a repair rating by ifixit under 5/6 are more not designed to be repair and if you are successful is more getting into luck than pure skill.
                [1 Device is designed to be repaired but only Vendor can get the parts new.
                [2 Device is designed to be repaired Vendor has not blocked getting parts.
                [3 Vendor provides parts to third parties and has a decent repair program
                [4 all designs and spare parts are able to be sourced. Vendor is open about where to get the parts to have device fixed no contracts on that vendors supplier to prevent them supplying third party with parts or any drm crap preventing third party fixes from working and will also sell you directly any parts you need to fix a broken one.

                Basically a good quality device you are looking for 444 at this point. Lot of cheap laptops and phones you are not going to get all 4 across the board. You can horrible in places getting devices by my metrics would be 020 and this is a brand new so call flagship product android and windows laptops from some companies. Pinebook and pinebook pro could in a years time manage across the board sweep up until this point. So there are a lot of products on the shelf that look out of the box ready that really should never leave the shelf because they are crap.

                4) Maturity of platform.

                This could be other companies logos like netflix to say the device has DRM support. Of course the current pinebook/pinebook pro don't have this. Its also third party software support status. I really don't know way to do this well in a logo and in a measurable checklist way to persons expectations of the device for what it will run will be about right.

                Basically my security and usability status stuff would make sense on Windows, Android, Linux, IOS and Mac OS devices so customers know what they are truly getting. Lot of people see 100 dollar cheap high feature phones not being aware they are dirt cheap because they are no longer vendor supported so people buy these products with false impression.

                Linux products like the ones out of pine are not the only ones with a false impression problem at times. There is a very big problem communicating this information to end customers. There are a lot of android and windows devices that people are buying that are basically tricking them out of their cash for a poor product. There are a lot cases where you have two exactly the same built quality windows laptops one has 2 years of vendors support left and the other has 6 years of vendor support left and they both have the same price tag on them so consumer thinks they are close to the same when from a security point of view they are no where near close.

                Current system consumers are buying computer hardware badly under-informed on the quality of what they do buy so cannot in fact make informed purchases most of the time.

                I think this is intentional because vendors don't want to have provide longer support or recycle a stack of machines they produced that they no longer support because no one will buy them cost of production price. Think new machine where consumer will only buy at second hand price because the device is not supported by vendor.


                Of course there would be a 5 cat I am not covering what would be performance information on what tasks the device hardware is suitable to supporting.

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                • #18
                  Originally posted by danmcgrew View Post
                  the Asus EeePC 701-4G
                  Barf. Just when I thought that speak-n-spell turd was flushed from my memory, you had to remind me again. Ah yes, the Eee PC, the pinnacle of netbook hype. Spend more money than is prudent to upgrade it to the max, and it became a just barely passable portable computer for the most rudimentary tasks. A month later and you're already regretting spending your hard earned dollars on this tamagotchi-with-a-keyboard. Quite frankly I'm impressed - it's probably set the record for shortest time from retail sale to trashcan e-waste.

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