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  • #61
    Originally posted by deppman View Post
    cybertraveler duby229
    Ok gang, you go invest your time and money making an all AMD laptop. Perhaps you can start start with that well supported RX 480 that has a TDP of 150W and often draws over 200W. Now compare that to the 80W GTX 2060 mobile which is significantly faster and supports CUDA, tensor flow, and had great launch day drivers for Linux (like all Nvidia cards for the last decade). Battery life would be maybe 30 minutes? Who's being delusional now?

    Now you could go with the RX 480 100W TDP mobile part but it offers half the performance of the RTX 2060 with at least 25% higher power draw. Maybe this is why they sold absolutely none of them. To anyone. Ever. So we really can't use that and be competitive. If our demographic really wants that kind of shit performance they could just buy ... a MBP. Again, honestly, where is that compelling mobile AMD GPU that is competitive and just works well with Linux? We haven't found any. Neither have other Linux vendors!

    There is a way things should work, and there is the way things actually work. People who recognize this are called pragmatists and get things accomplished. Those who don't accept reality become cynics.
    If you really are targetting just the GNU/Linux developer market that need to do GPU intensive work on-the-go and they don't care about the drawbacks of NVIDIA proprietary drivers, then your choice of NVIDIA hardware selection makes sense.

    If you want to target the [presumably] much greater GNU/Linux developer market, then Intel and AMD GPUs make more sense.

    If someone is doing very GPU intensive work and they don't need to move their computer around then obviously a desktop computer is the most cost affective solution.

    Originally posted by deppman View Post
    cybertraveler duby229
    We must all realize that AMDs best friend is Nvidia. Lisa Su is closely related to Jen-Hsun. "Technically, Lisa Su's grandfather is Jen-Hsun Huang's uncle. They are not exactly niece and uncle, but close relatives." Go ahead and look it up. I'll wait. AMD second closest friend is Intel. And their third closest BFF is Qualcomm. Why? Because they all need each other to support the cross licensing designed to bar anyone from entering the markets in their oligarchy.
    I don't think this info is relevant to the discussion as there are objective differences in how AMD & Intel operate in the GNU/Linux world vs NVIDIA. Despite it being irrelevant (IMO), it is still very interesting info. Thanks. I did previously notice that there was a strange resemblance between Lisa and Jen-Hsun. Not so strange now.

    Comment


    • #62
      So another laptop with no separate function keys, no middle mouse, only touchpad, and embedded battery.... So even if it is hardware compatible with Linux, it will be annoying and obnoxious to use if you want to use terminal applications, or want to use far from a electrical socket. It also ships with Intel, just to make sure you catch up with all the old and new vulnerabilities and performance caps while making the machine more expensive....


      and it comes with Preinstalled Ubuntu while advertising it as "newer software!"... Yes, it is going to be new... for a few weeks if they sync with the latest release. Then soon it'll become old and outdated. Either you advertise the latest or Ubuntu, but not both at the same time!

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Templar82 View Post

        Here you go.
        Thanks. That means you need to be really, really careful with the rest of their claims, sadly -- many of the more interesting claims are probably marketing BS at best if not outright deceptive.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
          You are wrong.

          Oh I do both too. Activities that I don't want Big Brother to see don't involve computing devices. Critical information is not stored on digital medium. If possible it is not stored at all.

          This does NOT give you any guarantee of 100% security either.
          Listen I'm not the one posting bullshit requirements, you are.

          You can sue for ME too, as it is not licensed software. It is signed by Intel, only Intel is responsible for what it does.

          There is a difference between proactive security and raging paranoia. Coming up with bullshit theories about how everything can be against you is pointless. There is no indication that the ME isn't disabled after you set the "disable" config option. It is the best that can be done without going on a Power or even Risc-V system, spending a fortune and ending with a device that fits in an ATX case or is just a powerful microcontroller.

          Full silicon schematics, of the entire die. The Verilog or whatever foundry-specific "language" the CPU is actually designed in.

          It's not a matter of capability, but of trust. The CPU is a black box. Since we are into the "raging paranoia mode" you should not trust a book written by the vendor telling you "these are the instructions you can use", what if the little shit has added more instructions, more special registers, that are disclosed only to "privileged parties"?

          See this lecture for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH0F9r0siTI
          I have no interest in continuing this largely due to the fact that you've consistently resorted to simple name calling instead of continuing civilised discourse.

          That being said, your arguments above (from what I can tell) would have also labelled anyone who was concerned about Google and Facebook before the CA scandal and Google location tracking reveals with "raging paranoia". Labelling someone doesn't change underlying facts, even if those facts are not yet fully discovered. The simple known facts of a.) full system access, b.) inability for end user to modify or replace without Intel signature and c.) effective lawsuit immunity mean that a corporation NOT exploiting something like the ME is actually leaving money on the table -- capitalism then dictates that if it's not already being used in an owner-hostile manner, it will be, eventually. Labelling just allows you to push that nagging (or fleeting) feeling of "what if I do have to give up my AMD system or accept unwanted consequences" neatly to the side.

          Regarding the fact that you think you can sue and win over patchable software issues, this is an ... "interesting" ... interpretation. Can you point to even one lawsuit in the US that a.) won full damages for loss of business / data theft / etc. over a software defect and b.) where those damages were actually paid instead of / in addition to the software patch itself? And before you dig up cases where the lawsuit was decided on existing high level contracts between corporations vs. basic law regarding fitness for purpose, bear in mind most individuals and corporations will never be able to enter into a higher level contract with their software vendor, and if they can the damages incurred due to a software defect may be far in excess of what is actually recoverable in court.

          If you want full silicon designs, RTL, etc. seriously look at Microwatt and help the community make a faster processor. Buying Intel/AMD isn't going to help make this happen, rolling up your sleeves, getting to work, and buying into an open ISA ecosystem just might.
          Last edited by madscientist159; 12-19-2019, 12:34 PM.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by madscientist159 View Post
            you labelled anyone who was concerned about Google and Facebook before the CA scandal and Google location tracking reveals with "raging paranoia".
            No I didn't do so. I called what YOU are doing "raging paranoia".

            Google and Facebook have extensive privacy papers where they state they do collect stuff about more or less everything, this was never a secret.

            Labelling someone doesn't change underlying facts, even if those facts are not yet fully discovered.
            There is a difference between existing and imagined. If there are no proof it's possible but NOT a fact.

            Regarding the fact that you think you can sue and win over patchable software issues is an ... "interesting" ... interpretation.
            Law allows that, there are plenty of lawsuits against software houses (MS included) because of software flaws. Winning in court is a different matter.

            most individuals and corporations will never be able to enter into a higher level contract with their software vendor,
            Of course individuals and corporations sue the hardware vendor (HP, Dell, and so on) over firmware issues and they will escalate this on Intel to avoid paying, because as I said they can do so.

            and if they can the damages incurred due to a software defect may be far in excess of what is actually recoverable in court.
            Is this different from hardware issues? Does that guarantee that the vendor will pay you a fair price? I think not.

            You went this way of "you can't sue because it's software" which is bullshit. You can sue for both reasons. The issue is that unless you are basically Oracle and can pay a platoon of lawyers you will either lose or will go bankrupt as the lawsuit goes on and on for years.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by vladimir86 View Post
              So another laptop with no separate function keys, no middle mouse, only touchpad, and embedded battery.... So even if it is hardware compatible with Linux, it will be annoying and obnoxious to use if you want to use terminal applications, or want to use far from a electrical socket. It also ships with Intel, just to make sure you catch up with all the old and new vulnerabilities and performance caps while making the machine more expensive....


              and it comes with Preinstalled Ubuntu while advertising it as "newer software!"... Yes, it is going to be new... for a few weeks if they sync with the latest release. Then soon it'll become old and outdated. Either you advertise the latest or Ubuntu, but not both at the same time!
              Ubuntu =! Kubuntu

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
                No I didn't do so. I called what YOU are doing "raging paranoia".

                Google and Facebook have extensive privacy papers where they state they do collect stuff about more or less everything, this was never a secret.

                There is a difference between existing and imagined. If there are no proof it's possible but NOT a fact.

                Law allows that, there are plenty of lawsuits against software houses (MS included) because of software flaws. Winning in court is a different matter.

                Of course individuals and corporations sue the hardware vendor (HP, Dell, and so on) over firmware issues and they will escalate this on Intel to avoid paying, because as I said they can do so.

                Is this different from hardware issues? Does that guarantee that the vendor will pay you a fair price? I think not.

                You went this way of "you can't sue because it's software" which is bullshit. You can sue for both reasons. The issue is that unless you are basically Oracle and can pay a platoon of lawyers you will either lose or will go bankrupt as the lawsuit goes on and on for years.
                Of course you can sue for nearly anything. It's commonly understood that you normally sue over things that there is a reasonable chance of winning, which is what I was trying to say earlier. No reasonable person sues over software defects (like the ME defects) because they can't win. Reasonable people sue over hardware defects all the time because there is a decent chance they CAN win.

                But, your obvious desire to keep using the easy/*cheap*/perceived (by you) as "safe" AMD systems is making it nearly impossible for you to see any other point of view.

                I remember people with similar viewpoints from before the Google and Facebook privacy violations became public knowledge. The statements haven't changed one bit -- until something is staring them in the face as a complete unavoidable fact (i.e. a LOT of avoidable damage has already been done) they will deny up and down that there is fire associated with that smoke / dry kindling off in the distance. Why you are content with "safe until proven dangerous" is beyond me -- the far more reasonable approach is "dangerous until proven safe". With the former, I can give you a new IoT device every few minutes and you'd either have to assume they were safe (since you can't analyze them for provable defects that quickly) or go into, and I quote, "raging paranoia" mode if you don't install and connect them to the Internet.

                I'm certainly glad people involved in actual security research use the latter method, and those that use the former method are slowly being pushed out of the field.

                Note that there is a third, middle ground: for user patchable software, a reasonable approach is to limit the attack surface as much as possible knowing that when defects are found, you have all the tools required to fix those defects or render them harmless (especially if "you" refers to an organization here). For unpatchable, signed, locked, black box software, especially without an SLA and guarantee of correctness, this approach cannot reasonably be used.

                Bottom line: what YOU may accept from your computer is not what OTHER people may require from theirs. To think otherwise is, bluntly, delusional.
                Last edited by madscientist159; 12-19-2019, 01:16 PM.

                Comment


                • #68
                  deppman (System76 engineer here)

                  > But, they said "thanks but we got our whole new Pop!OS thing going"

                  When did you reach out to System76? We also sell our desktops and laptops with Ubuntu, so it's not just Pop!_OS here.

                  > besides they "just started building app packs" just like the one we provided them with for free

                  What's an app pack? Are you referring to an apt repository?

                  > I'm not a fan creating a separate Pop! OS ecosystem

                  It's not a separate ecosystem. It uses the same existing Ubuntu ecosystem; we just build our ISOs differently, adding our own debian repositories on top of the Ubuntu repositories, with additional applications and Pop desktop packaging.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by deppman View Post
                    cybertraveler duby229
                    Ok gang, you go invest your time and money making an all AMD laptop. Perhaps you can start start with that well supported RX 480 that has a TDP of 150W and often draws over 200W. Now compare that to the 80W GTX 2060 mobile which is significantly faster and supports CUDA, tensor flow, and had great launch day drivers for Linux (like all Nvidia cards for the last decade). Battery life would be maybe 30 minutes? Who's being delusional now?

                    Now you could go with the RX 480 100W TDP mobile part but it offers half the performance of the RTX 2060 with at least 25% higher power draw. Maybe this is why they sold absolutely none of them. To anyone. Ever. So we really can't use that and be competitive. If our demographic really wants that kind of shit performance they could just buy ... a MBP. Again, honestly, where is that compelling mobile AMD GPU that is competitive and just works well with Linux? We haven't found any. Neither have other Linux vendors!

                    There is a way things should work, and there is the way things actually work. People who recognize this are called pragmatists and get things accomplished. Those who don't accept reality become cynics.

                    We must all realize that AMDs best friend is Nvidia. Lisa Su is closely related to Jen-Hsun. "Technically, Lisa Su's grandfather is Jen-Hsun Huang's uncle. They are not exactly niece and uncle, but close relatives." Go ahead and look it up. I'll wait. AMD second closest friend is Intel. And their third closest BFF is Qualcomm. Why? Because they all need each other to support the cross licensing designed to bar anyone from entering the markets in their oligarchy. I bought AMD at $1.90 per share when their future looked bleak because I knew that their BFFs would never allow them to go under. If they did, Nvidia and Intel and Qualcomm would face monopoly scrutiny far greater than they've ever seen.

                    Sure these companies have their squabbles within tightly defined constraints, but they are all members of the same elite club. If you think AMD is somehow the great white hope that will break this cycle you are sadly mistaken. Disruption if and when it does occur will come from outside this group. I don't like this anymore than you do but that's how things work. Getting all religious about these things just makes you a pawn in this charade.

                    We're delivering an exciting product competes well with the MBP or W10 laptops yet is far more open in many ways. We believe our target demographic appreciates this, and I hope you would too. It's a big step in the right direction. Please don't be a bitter cynic because we can't boil the ocean.
                    Again I don't mean anything personal to you, but again almost everything you just said is bullshit.

                    I'm not going to repeat myself and beak down why you're wrong again. The only legit argument you have is about Cuda support. Literally everything else you said is bullshit.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by cybertraveler View Post

                      If you really are targetting just the GNU/Linux developer market that need to do GPU intensive work on-the-go and they don't care about the drawbacks of NVIDIA proprietary drivers, then your choice of NVIDIA hardware selection makes sense.

                      If you want to target the [presumably] much greater GNU/Linux developer market, then Intel and AMD GPUs make more sense.

                      If someone is doing very GPU intensive work and they don't need to move their computer around then obviously a desktop computer is the most cost affective solution.
                      Surprisingly, many Mac shops will only buy a trophy laptop with full disk encryption for their employees. Desktops are not an option. Not that anyone can afford a Mac Pro. These are Java and Python (Deep learning) and Web developers that all must deploy to Linux but are generally ignorant of many facets of the OS and thus often fail to take advantage of it. The Python folks are especially within our demographic because Linux + CUDA is their native platform. This system is shipping with a broad suite to support this.

                      Originally posted by cybertraveler View Post
                      I don't think this info is relevant to the discussion as there are objective differences in how AMD & Intel operate in the GNU/Linux world vs NVIDIA. Despite it being irrelevant (IMO), it is still very interesting info. Thanks. I did previously notice that there was a strange resemblance between Lisa and Jen-Hsun. Not so strange now.
                      I was leading to a much more philosophical argument here. But hey, as long as it's interesting. And I do see Nvidia definitely embracing OSS more an more. Thanks for the constructive response.
                      Last edited by deppman; 12-20-2019, 03:47 AM.

                      Comment

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