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A Kubuntu-Powered Laptop Is Launching In 2020 For High-End KDE Computing

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  • #51
    Originally posted by Vistaus View Post
    I'm a freelancer, but I can't live without a ThinkPad and Linux. Though I *will* use the Planet Computers Cosmo Communicator for part of my activities, but still, no MBP here. Never.
    Both devices with a true keyboard designed for typing on it.

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    • #52
      Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
      For example the old gen Mac Pro (the trashcan thing, you know) was too revolutionary for its times too, and now they rolled back to something more conventional with their latest Mac Pro.
      It wasn't revolutionary. It was simply stupid. Revolutionary implies some level of ingenuity that matters. The form factor of a workstation is not nearly as important as capabilities. Jonny must have missed that memo, because the design had enormous compromises all over the place to support a blatantly stupid form.

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      • #53
        Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
        Your point about keyboard quality is irrelevant to what we were making. In a good laptop used by professionals a good battery is important.

        Apple is commonly regarded as a "good laptop used by professionals on the go" in many fields and they do have a big battery by default to at least try to look like they are made for that.
        So let me get this straight: people should buy a $1600 MBP just for gazing at the screen? 'Cause a laptop is not a laptop if the keyboard doesn't work, esp. on the go.

        Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
        Yes, some ideas may be too revolutionary even for Apple and they have to rollback to still be understood and appreciated by their audience.

        For example the old gen Mac Pro (the trashcan thing, you know) was too revolutionary for its times too, and now they rolled back to something more conventional with their latest Mac Pro.
        Well, you know what they say:
        Last edited by Vistaus; 12-18-2019, 06:50 PM.

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        • #54
          Originally posted by Vistaus View Post
          So let me get this straight: people should buy a $1600 MBP just for gazing at the screen?
          In the discussion above, keyboard quality was not the reason I brought up Apple MBPs. They were brought up because of battery life.

          There are plenty of ways people can "use MBPs wrong" and therefore due to their user's faults they cannot fulfill their undeniable design goal of being "good laptop used by professionals on the go".

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          • #55
            Originally posted by deppman View Post
            It wasn't revolutionary. It was simply stupid. ... the design had enormous compromises all over the place to support a blatantly stupid form.
            That's exactly... what someone that didn't understand the vision would say.

            (and no, I'm just playing with you here. I'm not an Apple fanboi, I just know some of the actual positive things that make people like Apple MBPs, besides the whole religion thing. I can't really find anything worth saving in the Mac Pro)

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            • #56
              Originally posted by deppman View Post
              ..........
              In addition, we have to use Nvidia. Their CUDA solutions are far superior to any AMD mobile offering, and is simply required to reach the deep learning developers. This 2060 has over 2x the GPU power compared to the most expensive MBP you can buy. This is a big USA. Check out how Rocket League stays pegged at 144 FPS while running multiple demanding apps - even while video editing! AMD simply has nothing to compete, and the drivers still aren't mature on Linux.

              We aren't targeting religious zealots who use Windows at work and then tinker with a Linux desktop when they get home. We are chasing highly paid professionals that need their system to work every day and work very well. And that's what we're providing.
              ................
              Dumbest oxymoron ever!!!

              It's almost like saying something like, "I fart to like so i scream green".... MAKES ZERO SENSE... Stringing a whole bunch unrelated words together doesn't make your decisions right. Update X or kernel and nvidia drivers are broken. Every single time. Hard fact. Your so called highly paid professionals -WILL- have to deal with broken graphics on your hardware -guaranteed-. If they don't know how to fix -that- then they would most definitely be better off with AMD hardware. And that isn't even considering all the rest of the flaws nvidia forces on you.

              EDIT: Nvidia hardware -CAN'T- use Wayland on KDE and security is broken by default, so it's -NOT- secure. It -WILL- break on every update, so it's -NOT- stable. nVidia's OpenGL implementation is -NOT- standards compliant, so it -ISN'T- fair. And -NONE- of it is open source so it -WON'T- ever get fixed.

              EDIT: Oh yeah, and lest I forget, there is the decades long multimonitor bugs, which your so called highly paid professionals are most definitely going to need. It's impossible to get tearfree on anything past the first display. Xrender acceleration is horribly slow, unbearably so. And with twinview fullscreen apps can only stretch across all screens. Multimonitor experience on nvidia is so horribly bad. Which is -ALL- directly related to the fact it -ISN'T- open source and -WON'T- ever get fixed.
              Last edited by duby229; 12-18-2019, 09:24 PM.

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              • #57
                Originally posted by duby229 View Post

                Dumbest oxymoron ever!!!

                It's almost like saying something like, "I fart to like so i scream green".... MAKES ZERO SENSE... Stringing a whole bunch unrelated words together doesn't make your decisions right. Update X or kernel and nvidia drivers are broken. Every single time. Hard fact. Your so called highly paid professionals -WILL- have to deal with broken graphics on your hardware -guaranteed-. If they don't know how to fix -that- then they would most definitely be better off with AMD hardware. And that isn't even considering all the rest of the flaws nvidia forces on you.

                EDIT: Nvidia hardware -CAN'T- use Wayland on KDE and security is broken by default, so it's -NOT- secure. It -WILL- break on every update, so it's -NOT- stable. nVidia's OpenGL implementation is -NOT- standards compliant, so it -ISN'T- fair. And -NONE- of it is open source so it -WON'T- ever get fixed.

                EDIT: Oh yeah, and lest I forget, there is the decades long multimonitor bugs, which your so called highly paid professionals are most definitely going to need. It's impossible to get tearfree on anything past the first display. Xrender acceleration is horribly slow, unbearably so. And with twinview fullscreen apps can only stretch across all screens. Multimonitor experience on nvidia is so horribly bad. Which is -ALL- directly related to the fact it -ISN'T- open source and -WON'T- ever get fixed.
                I've run Nvidia with Linux for decades now. Never a problem unless one is trying to live on the bleeding edge. Remember, the bleeding edge is where we bleed. All my set ups for the past 15 years have been multi-monitor. At my last day job, I plugged in 3 4K displays using 2xmini DPI and one HDMI to my GTX 1060 powered laptop. That gave me 4 screens and they worked beautifully. Never had a tearing problem of any sort. That was certainly better than any Intel solution!

                Are you implying that AMD drivers are better? Objectively, I find that very hard to believe. Every time I see a bake-off between NV and AMD hardware on Linux I see at least one the following: 1. The AMD OSS driver is compiled from a Git source to ensure the best performance; 2. AMD is running the bleeding edge kernel that isn't generally available; 3. One or many benchmarks failed to run on AMD or exhibited unacceptable artifacts.

                If we don't use AMD graphics, we don't need a bleeding edge Kernel, and then all the problems that result from that go away - including things like broken X servers. Also, when we ran the bleeding edge kernel on the Kubuntu Focus it failed to idle properly and Geekbench scores dropped to 50% of their prior levels. We're working with upstream to fix. But it's going to take a while.

                If you've got a better AMD-only hardware solution that deep learning developers want to use please let me know. I don't see any AMD hardware that is currently available and competitive in this space. We've got a significant amount reserved for capex, but not the design-your-own-laptop-from-the-ground-up-only-using-AMD level. If you do, then please share.
                Last edited by deppman; 12-18-2019, 10:15 PM.

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                • #58
                  Originally posted by deppman View Post

                  I've run Nvidia with Linux for decades now. Never a problem unless one is trying to live on the bleeding edge. Remember, the bleeding edge is where we bleed. All my set ups for the past 15 years have been multi-monitor. At my last day job, I plugged in 3 4K displays using 2xmini DPI and one HDMI to my GTX 1060 powered laptop. That gave me 4 screens and they worked beautifully. Never had a tearing problem of any sort. That was certainly better than any Intel solution!

                  Are you implying that AMD drivers are better? Objectively, I find that very hard to believe. Every time I see a bake-off between NV and AMD hardware on Linux I see at least one the following: 1. The AMD OSS driver is compiled from a Git source to ensure the best performance; 2. AMD is running the bleeding edge kernel that isn't generally available; 3. One or many benchmarks failed to run on AMD or exhibited unacceptable artifacts.

                  If we don't use AMD graphics, we don't need a bleeding edge Kernel, and then all the problems that result from that go away - including things like broken X servers. Also, when we ran the bleeding edge kernel on the Kubuntu Focus it failed to idle properly and Geekbench scores dropped to 50% of their prior levels. We're working with upstream to fix. But it's going to take a while.

                  If you've got a better AMD-only hardware solution that deep learning developers want to use please let me know. I don't see any AMD hardware that is currently available and competitive in this space. We've got a significant amount reserved for capex, but not the design-your-own-laptop-from-the-ground-up-only-using-AMD level. If you do, then please share.
                  No offense to you personally, but that's almost entirely bullshit.

                  The bottom line is that on linux you -need- to choose hardware that's -ALREADY- well supported, whether it's a graphics card or a WiFi adapter or even joystick paddle. And that's been true since the very beginning of linux and has -NEVER- changed. You just can't buy recently released hardware that doesn't already have good drivers. If you choose to buy the very latest 5700XT for example you can expect it to have some growing pains, but if on the other hand you choose to buy a 480 then that card is already extremely well supported because it already went through its growing pains.

                  On the other hand if you use nVidia hardware of -ANY- generation it -WILL- break on the next OS upgrade.

                  So to break down your bullet points...
                  1. is true for any software, of course keeping software up to date is going to ensure you have access to the latest development. And in Open Source that specifically means you as an end user have access to the current code as it's being made. That's a huge benefit, especially to so called highly paid professionals.
                  2. is flat wrong, it is -exactly- why you -MUST- choose hardware that is -ALREADY- well supported. And it's the case whether we are discussing graphics cards or -anything- else.
                  3. is a direct result of you choosing hardware that doesn't already have well supported drivers available. If you had chosen as in my example above a 480 instead, then in that case of an -already- well supported graphics card you would -NOT- have run into those incompatibilities.

                  EDIT: I can't comment on your experiences, but I can comment that yes in fact nVidia hardware is -NOT- capable of tearfree past the first display, yes in fact xrender is horribly and unbearably slow and yes in fact twinview has many bugs relating to fullscreen apps. Now whether these major flaws affect your usage patterns or whether you notice them is somethign else unrelated to the fact that they are very real and decades old flaws that will -never- get fixed.
                  Last edited by duby229; 12-18-2019, 11:20 PM.

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                  • #59
                    duby229 - Great posts. However I can't help but be reminded of this quote when seeing deppman's responses:

                    Image of quote: It's amazing how difficult it is for a man to understand something if he's paid a small fortune to not understand it. -John C Bogle

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                    • #60
                      cybertraveler duby229
                      Ok gang, you go invest your time and money making an all AMD laptop. Perhaps you can start start with that well supported RX 480 that has a TDP of 150W and often draws over 200W. Now compare that to the 80W GTX 2060 mobile which is significantly faster and supports CUDA, tensor flow, and had great launch day drivers for Linux (like all Nvidia cards for the last decade). Battery life would be maybe 30 minutes? Who's being delusional now?

                      Now you could go with the RX 480 100W TDP mobile part but it offers half the performance of the RTX 2060 with at least 25% higher power draw. Maybe this is why they sold absolutely none of them. To anyone. Ever. So we really can't use that and be competitive. If our demographic really wants that kind of shit performance they could just buy ... a MBP. Again, honestly, where is that compelling mobile AMD GPU that is competitive and just works well with Linux? We haven't found any. Neither have other Linux vendors!

                      There is a way things should work, and there is the way things actually work. People who recognize this are called pragmatists and get things accomplished. Those who don't accept reality become cynics.

                      We must all realize that AMDs best friend is Nvidia. Lisa Su is closely related to Jen-Hsun. "Technically, Lisa Su's grandfather is Jen-Hsun Huang's uncle. They are not exactly niece and uncle, but close relatives." Go ahead and look it up. I'll wait. AMD second closest friend is Intel. And their third closest BFF is Qualcomm. Why? Because they all need each other to support the cross licensing designed to bar anyone from entering the markets in their oligarchy. I bought AMD at $1.90 per share when their future looked bleak because I knew that their BFFs would never allow them to go under. If they did, Nvidia and Intel and Qualcomm would face monopoly scrutiny far greater than they've ever seen.

                      Sure these companies have their squabbles within tightly defined constraints, but they are all members of the same elite club. If you think AMD is somehow the great white hope that will break this cycle you are sadly mistaken. Disruption if and when it does occur will come from outside this group. I don't like this anymore than you do but that's how things work. Getting all religious about these things just makes you a pawn in this charade.

                      We're delivering an exciting product competes well with the MBP or W10 laptops yet is far more open in many ways. We believe our target demographic appreciates this, and I hope you would too. It's a big step in the right direction. Please don't be a bitter cynic because we can't boil the ocean.

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