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Librem 5 Will Begin Shipping In The Weeks Ahead, But Varying Quality Over Months Ahead

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  • #81
    Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
    Lol no you are comparing "trying to merge something into a project with high standards and lots of bikeshedding" with "going on your own".

    Raspi hardware-design-wise is a piece of shit (see the project of reverse-engineering the board boot firmware for example), same goes for the PoE hat. But they are on their own. There is no "upstream", no gatekeepers. As long as it works at all it's good.
    Same approach that they follow with their own Linux distro, they are using a hacked downstream kernel fork, where they have full control and can do as they please.
    I totally agree with you with the exception on the cost of hardware. You can design low volume hardware for the price of a plane ticket to Shenzhen and a few thousand dollars. It's software that cost real money. It would take Purism 3 month at the most to do schematic, layout, sample, verification, and bringup if the software compatibility and driver support was there. Additionally modems and certification are incredibly complex and time consuming processes mostly rooted in firmware/software.

    I was being facetious when I said "It's hard to screw up hardware repeatedly but there are some talented companies namely Raspberry Pi and Pine." How they manage to mess up every release is just amazing.

    Originally posted by tildearrow View Post

    He thinks you do due to your username.
    Hopefully he can focus on facts of the matter and not jump to (wrong) conclusions.
    Last edited by LoveRPi; 09-07-2019, 02:07 AM.

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    • #82
      Originally posted by LoveRPi View Post
      iMX8M is a proper chip designed for the use-case (phone). A64 is not working: https://lore.kernel.org/patchwork/cover/904606/
      A64 has known faults and workarounds because it old enough to have work around.

      Originally posted by LoveRPi View Post
      PinePhone's choice of A64 has an unfixable timer bug that prevents basic things like tracking time. Kernel and userspace will go haywire and corrupt things because of this. This is a non-starter any rational product company. That's like having a car without circular wheels.
      This is not silicon. No matter what chip you choose you are going to have square wheels in it somewhere.

      https://community.nxp.com/thread/500975
      Yes there are timer bugs in the IMX8M as well in different places. Problem is the IMX8M silicon had not been widely deployed enough yet for all those opps the silicon have done something that either sends Linux kernel nuts or kernel does something and the the silicon just freezes.

      Originally posted by LoveRPi View Post
      Mali 400 is far inferior to Vivante both in software and hardware. Mali 450 is a huge improvement on Mali 400 and can run a lot more shaders. Vivante is a class above that with OpenGL ES 3.x and compute shaders. It is a "modern" unified shader GPU where as Mali 4xx is obsolete in terms of design.
      This is because you are really not aware how long this takes. Yes I am not saying the mali 400 is superior. But problem with using a older known chip is that you have older tech. Price of the choice.

      Originally posted by LoveRPi View Post
      PinePhone cannot be FCC certified because of its hardware design. Legally you can't use it on any provider's network.
      Stop speaking out your ass.
      http://files.pine64.org/doc/cert/SOP...OC20170428.pdf
      Every step along the PinePhone process has had a FCC certificate done by a approved FCC party. This is the first pinephone development board. Do note the date "April 2017". So every pinephone device has been legal to use on any provider network as they have been careful todo the require FCC and other certifications.

      So the base design for PinePhone is 2017. So the pinephone releasing this year has been in development for over 2 years. You do look at the first pinephone prototype it did have the cellular network board by M.2 port they removed that because they were told they would not get approval for general sale if they kept it.

      I will give librem 5 developers respect for having the balls to argue with the FCC and other regulators over this point with risk their project could have been completely killed by arguing. I have not seen the librem 5 final certificates. Pinephone does have all its final FCC certificates so all they have todo is produce them and sell them at this point because they have all the i dotted and t cross for legal usage even if the software is not.

      Final certificate need final casing. Up until the point of final certificate from FCC a phone product may be completely illegal to import/use.

      This one here is something that happens the raspberry pi 4 has 1 to few resisters and the Rockpro64 first version has 1 too many resistors. Turns out it was not that the Rockpro64 had to been tested with SD card port with emulator card just happens the sd emulator card they used works with extra resister in mix. This is case where QA can go wrong. They tested the SD port just test said it worked but when you put real sd card it does not.

      Originally posted by LoveRPi View Post
      I mean basic stuff here. It's cool to have options but it's not cool to half-ass everything and pretend to be a coherent product. Purism was in over its head but they're trying their damnest and at least following a proper process. It's crowdfunding for a reason with a meaningful goal.
      Raspberry pi and other board vendors have had the same problems as pine group. Hardware development is quite hard and quite simple to screw up.

      Comment


      • #83
        Yawn. If the phone isn't actually shipping in a stable state yet, then it's just a bunch of speculation, from my perspective. I've become jaded over the years from seeing efforts like this fail again and again.

        Having said this, I wish Purism the best of luck, in realizing their sky-high ideals in a phone market where only slapdash, break-neck-speed quick-to-market devices can seem to survive whatsoever, let alone win the day.

        I'm content with my LineageOS phone for now, and I'm pretty sure my next phone will probably also be LineageOS, considering the rate of development and progress of alternative OSS phone efforts like Purism's, and Pine64's.

        Comment


        • #84
          Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
          A64 has known faults and workarounds because it old enough to have work around.
          You can't fix a fundamentally "broken" timer. The upstream merged workaround still doesn't fix the problem completely. There are many dfiferent workarounds for the A64 timer randomness but it's a tradeoff between merge-ability, excessive CPU time, userspace hackery, and the relative "brokeness" of the clock.

          Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
          This is because you are really not aware how long this takes. Yes I am not saying the mali 400 is superior. But problem with using a older known chip is that you have older tech. Price of the choice.

          Stop speaking out your ass.
          We are yuq's sponsor for the lima project among many other open source projects in the ARM space. We only work with hard facts. Vivante is far superior to Utgard. Vivante has a solid Mesa Gallium3D GL 2.0 and GLES 2.0 driver. Utgard has a demo driver that can only run kmscube. There's still at least two man years of work per yuq.

          Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
          http://files.pine64.org/doc/cert/SOP...OC20170428.pdf
          Every step along the PinePhone process has had a FCC certificate done by a approved FCC party. This is the first pinephone development board. Do note the date "April 2017". So every pinephone device has been legal to use on any provider network as they have been careful todo the require FCC and other certifications.
          Nope. Wrong. TL Lim's own words: https://ameridroid.com/blogs/ameribl...ls-from-tl-lim
          "Unfortunately, smartphone FCC and CE certifications are a different ball game compared to standard electronic devices"
          Where's the certifications for Pine64's WiFi modules? Reckless disregard is a moral hazard.

          Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
          Pinephone does have all its final FCC certificates so all they have todo is produce them and sell them at this point because they have all the i dotted and t cross for legal usage even if the software is not.
          This does not exist and will not exist. To quote you proverbially: "Stop speaking out your ass." Fanboy-ism helps nobody.
          Last edited by LoveRPi; 09-07-2019, 06:24 AM.

          Comment


          • #85
            Originally posted by LoveRPi View Post
            You can't fix a fundamentally "broken" timer. The upstream merged workaround still doesn't fix the problem completely. There are many dfiferent workarounds for the A64 timer randomness but it's a tradeoff between merge-ability, excessive CPU time, userspace hackery, and the relative "brokeness" of the clock.
            The reality here is those work around thing don't work perfectly but it still works.

            Originally posted by LoveRPi View Post
            We are yuq's sponsor for the lima project among many other open source projects in the ARM space. We only work with hard facts. Vivante is far superior to Utgard. Vivante has a solid Mesa Gallium3D GL 2.0 and GLES 2.0 driver. Utgard has a demo driver that can only run kmscube. There's still at least two man years of work per yuq.
            https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/lima/mesa/issues/59
            problem here is lightly functional mali is not 2 years away. 2 years way todo everything mali 400 can yes. Enough to run a 2d phone interface and do basic development work is here now.

            Originally posted by LoveRPi View Post
            "Unfortunately, smartphone FCC and CE certifications are a different ball game compared to standard electronic devices"
            Where's the certifications for Pine64's WiFi modules? Reckless disregard is a moral hazard.
            https://legacy-uploads.ul.com/wp-con...Modules_v6.pdf
            Sometimes you need to know the approval process.

            Originally posted by LoveRPi View Post
            This does not exist and will not exist. To quote you proverbially: "Stop speaking out your ass." Fanboy-ism helps nobody.
            No stop being a idiot. FCC regulation is stupid. The device needs one FCC ID and a stack of TCB certificates. Stupid as it sounds a Wifi module due to being a add on part to known board only needs a TCB linked to the FCC ID of the boards it going to be used with. Of course this is a ass when someone wants to use that wifi board connected to another makers board. So a wifi board/module having a FCC ID is optional as long as the over all device has a FCC ID. Having a TCB certificate cover wifi module is not optional.

            So this is a case that something does not exist because it does not need to legally exist. Of course for those wishing to reuse the parts being made by pine if their wifi module had a stand alone fcc id it would be nice but its not a legal requirement to ship devices.

            Please note there are laptops sold in the USA where the m.2 wifi card does not have a FCC ID but the laptop itself has a FCC ID and it legal because that card TCB has been linked to the laptops FCC ID. So a laptop vendor might have like 8 supplies of wifi cards and gets TCBs on all of them and linked that to 1 FCC ID on the device. Yes this can work out cheaper than getting all the cards unique FCC ID. So what pine has done is not unique to pine.

            Please note there is a second horrible to the USA FCC ID regulation you see a removable m.2 wifi module in laptop with a FCC ID number on it you look up the number and you find its the laptop number FCC ID not a module unique number as well so not legal to use with any other device. Lot of ways pine was at least well enough behaved not to just print the complete device FCC ID on the wifi module.

            FCC ID is a bureaucracy nightmare with what is legal to be done with it and how what looks legal for what you can use because it has a FCC ID printed on it is not.

            This is something people using librem 5 could basically legally hang draw and quarter themselves attempt to use random m.2 wifi cards source random-ally inside the USA. This is why pine was recommended against having removable modules in final pinephone as well as using random m.2 wifi/cellular modules in the USA FCC system is a good way to land yourself in breach of FCC rules .

            Lot of ways we can learn a lot from what Pine has legally done and those planning on using librem 5 really do need to be aware that the usable m.2 modules will be kind of restricted due to the fact you are not required to individually FCC ID wifi and cellular modules. Modules that have been bundle FCC ID will not be usable with the librem 5.

            Comment


            • #86
              Originally posted by LoveRPi View Post

              Have no fanboy-ism so don't know what you are talking about. The last few generations of RPi hardware has been mediocre at best and full of proprietary non-sense. Good job making claims without basis and contrary to fact. Anyone who thinks any thought went into "design" after taking a look at any of Pine's SBCs is delusional.

              https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-a1a2...=2?imbypass=on
              https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/18...g?v=1524512481
              http://files.pine64.org/wiki/PINE%20A64.png

              Someone chewed up a bunch of ports and pin and spit it out randomly on a PCB. Anyone who knows how to design proper products will not use an SoC with a broken timer (A64).
              https://lore.kernel.org/patchwork/cover/904606/

              Facts are too hard for fanboys.
              "Have no fanboy-ism so don't know what you are talking about"...
              Of COURSE you don't, "LOVE RPi". None of you wannabe 'experts', with your endless fund of knowledge, EVER knows what someone--who calls their bluff--is talking about. EVER!

              "...Anyone who knows how to design proper products..."
              And what exactly, even remotely, does this have to do with you?

              https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-a1a2...=2?imbypass=on
              https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/18...g?v=1524512481
              http://files.pine64.org/wiki/PINE%20A64.png

              And just precisely WHAT do you think you just proved by posting three PHOTOGRAPHS? Photographs, with absolutely NO EXPLANATION nor any DOCUMENTATION?! What a dumbshit, for thinking anyone would fall for this!

              "...Facts are too hard for fanboys."
              You really are a dumbshit. A dumber-than-a-box-of-rocks dumbshit. SO dumb that you don't realize that you just crucified yourself, to wit:
              you just admitted that facts are too hard for YOU. Pathetic. You probably--no; make that "most definitely"--still don't get it.

              Quit trying to be an intellectual, and accept the fact that there are some things in this (i.e., "our"; "the rest of us") universe which are impossible.
              ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

              *"I am not one of those who in expressing opinions confine themselves to facts."--*Mark Twain*

              “‬No persons are more frequently wrong,* ‬than those who will not admit they are wrong.*” ‬
              ― François de La Rochefoucauld

              "I would like to take you seriously,* ‬but to do so would affront your intelligence.*"-- ‬William F.* ‬Buckley,* ‬Jr.*

              "Let us be thankful for the fools.* ‬But for them the rest of us could not succeed.*"--Mark Twain*

              Comment


              • #87
                Originally posted by danmcgrew View Post

                "Have no fanboy-ism so don't know what you are talking about"...
                Of COURSE you don't, "LOVE RPi". None of you wannabe 'experts', with your endless fund of knowledge, EVER knows what someone--who calls their bluff--is talking about. EVER!

                "...Anyone who knows how to design proper products..."
                And what exactly, even remotely, does this have to do with you?

                https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-a1a2...=2?imbypass=on
                https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/18...g?v=1524512481
                http://files.pine64.org/wiki/PINE%20A64.png

                And just precisely WHAT do you think you just proved by posting three PHOTOGRAPHS? Photographs, with absolutely NO EXPLANATION nor any DOCUMENTATION?! What a dumbshit, for thinking anyone would fall for this!

                "...Facts are too hard for fanboys."
                You really are a *censored*. *censored*. *censored* that you don't realize that you just crucified yourself, to wit:
                you just admitted that facts are too hard for YOU. Pathetic. You probably--no; make that "most definitely"--still don't get it.

                Quit trying to be an intellectual, and accept the fact that there are some things in this (i.e., "our"; "the rest of us") universe which are impossible.
                ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

                *"I am not one of those who in expressing opinions confine themselves to facts."--*Mark Twain*

                “‬No persons are more frequently wrong,* ‬than those who will not admit they are wrong.*” ‬
                ― François de La Rochefoucauld

                "I would like to take you seriously,* ‬but to do so would affront your intelligence.*"-- ‬William F.* ‬Buckley,* ‬Jr.*

                "Let us be thankful for the fools.* ‬But for them the rest of us could not succeed.*"--Mark Twain*
                LoveRPi I don't know whether I can consider this tolerable or not. He still is assuming you're a fanboy and even insulting you this hard despite explanation.

                Comment


                • #88
                  tildearrow Facts are proven wrong, goal posts get moved, devolves to name calling. This is no longer a rational exchange so I'm going to stop with this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_c...reement-en.svg

                  Comment


                  • #89
                    Originally posted by LoveRPi View Post
                    tildearrow Facts are proven wrong, goal posts get moved, devolves to name calling. This is no longer a rational exchange so I'm going to stop with this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_c...reement-en.svg
                    Yes moving goal posts. The hard part is the pinephone starts 2016 and the Libre 5 only goes crowd funding end of 2017.

                    Why so early pine has a 10 year supply of a64 chips and parts. Purism does not have the volume of sales to in fact get 10 years in contract supply of parts at this stage. They have not had the volume to special stuff from vendors either. A64 has limitations and is old but pine can be sure they have supply parts to fill any order. Because the pine contracts are years of supply not volume if they got a billion orders+ they would be able to get the parts and supply the devices.

                    The fact Purism will be able to get a m.2 card that supports audio for phone networks is party Pine Micro-systems wanting them.

                    New work by pine work is normally based on RK3399 not the A64. Yes the RK3399 is more competitive against against the chip in Librem 5.

                    Lot of ways having Pine Microsystems with the hardware volume to get proper supply contracts means we have one fairly open phone that should not have problems meeting demand.

                    Pine there is really good odd of there being a second generation of phone and we can already basically project what the specifications for that will be as in a RK3399 with 4G of ram.

                    Its one thing to make a one phone. Its another thing to support that phone and make another one.

                    A64 with all its issues is a chip that has been used in entry level smart phones in china for a while now.

                    Like it or not pinephone and librem5 will have to be put head to head to each other. Pinephone is priced for its performance level. There is a question if the librem 5 is.

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
                      Pinephone is priced for its performance level. There is a question if the librem 5 is.
                      There is not. The Librem 5 is not priced for it's performance level. The Librem 5 is priced for it's security, privacy, and liberty. And it is the best phone on the near-future market in all of those three regards. If you thought that the price of the Librem 5 was for it's performance level then you are missing the point of the Librem 5.

                      Comment

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