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Librem 5 Will Begin Shipping In The Weeks Ahead, But Varying Quality Over Months Ahead

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  • #71
    Originally posted by Danielsan View Post
    When they match otherwise you have to download another version of the same runtime...
    https://blogs.gnome.org/alexl/2017/1...at-in-flatpak/

    No that is not how flatpak works. When you have two versions of the same runtime you don't in fact download two full copies of the same runtime. When you download the second version of a runtime you only download the differences to the first version of the runtime and only consume the disc space of the differences.

    Flatpak is auto deduplicating due to using ostree.

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    • #72
      Originally posted by Venemo View Post
      It is based on Gnome, but they don't use Gnome Shell, so in theory their solution could possibly use less RAM than Gnome Shell. That being said I've personally never seen Gnome Shell consume that much RAM on my system.
      That was true at some point, but with some release last year they reduced the ram (around 500mb) usage 1:1 to kde niveau. So at this point this is a urban myth... 500mb is not much, but even the older versions with 1gb would not be as big as the Java virtual machine they have to load into ram for android.

      Android on my system (without playstore) uses nearly 700mb, and k9-mail a very very simple mail program uses 92mb ram Wire uses 122mb. Conversation a jabber client 39mb. I am pretty sure non-java Linux can beat that even with gnome.

      The whole libreoffice monstreus application only uses 150mb, a mail program will probably use 5-15mb instead of 92mb.
      Last edited by blackiwid; 09-06-2019, 01:01 PM.

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      • #73
        Purism is a software and product company. If you backed Purism, you really backed the software effort as much as the physical product. Based on their website, they seem to have dozens of professional engineers and a distributed operation. Their goal is to build a cohesive open source product.

        Pine is a manufacturer management company. They manage suppliers and focus on delivering the cheapest hardware possible without considering basic design or legal items like licenses. If you take a look at the board "designs", they're not really designed so much as they slap together the ports on board. PinePhone is really a hack (A64 glued to a USB 2.0 modem) when compared to the Librem 5 with i.MX 8.

        Throwing hardware at developers is the easiest thing in the world and cost next to nothing. An hour of professional software development is worth 10 dev boards. Please don't try to compare the two companies or products or open source support because there is nothing in common.

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        • #74
          Originally posted by LoveRPi View Post
          Purism is a software and product company. If you backed Purism, you really backed the software effort as much as the physical product. Based on their website, they seem to have dozens of professional engineers and a distributed operation. Their goal is to build a cohesive open source product.

          Pine is a manufacturer management company. They manage suppliers and focus on delivering the cheapest hardware possible without considering basic design or legal items like licenses. If you take a look at the board "designs", they're not really designed so much as they slap together the ports on board. PinePhone is really a hack (A64 glued to a USB 2.0 modem) when compared to the Librem 5 with i.MX 8.

          Throwing hardware at developers is the easiest thing in the world and cost next to nothing. An hour of professional software development is worth 10 dev boards. Please don't try to compare the two companies or products or open source support because there is nothing in common.
          PLEASE don't try to try and disguise your fanboy-ism behind a faux cloak of objectivity, "LOVE RPi".

          Something, just a teensy something, tells me that you wouldn't have written this comment if the PinePhone were built with a Raspberry Pi as its core. But of course, in that case, you'd be justifying and defending all its problems, "LOVE RPi".

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          • #75
            Originally posted by LoveRPi View Post
            Purism is a software and product company. If you backed Purism, you really backed the software effort as much as the physical product. Based on their website, they seem to have dozens of professional engineers and a distributed operation. Their goal is to build a cohesive open source product.
            This sounds good in theory. There is a downside to this lack of experience in hardware development hurts.

            Originally posted by LoveRPi View Post
            Pine is a manufacturer management company. They manage suppliers and focus on delivering the cheapest hardware possible without considering basic design or legal items like licenses. If you take a look at the board "designs", they're not really designed so much as they slap together the ports on board. PinePhone is really a hack (A64 glued to a USB 2.0 modem) when compared to the Librem 5 with i.MX 8.
            http://bkhome.org/news/201902/pineph...pment-kit.html you have just mentioned one of the biggest problems with librem 5 its been the i.MX 8.

            Yes Pine is a manufacturer management company meaning they are experienced getting boards out the door that in fact work by using chips that are already mass produced in volume and are dependable supply.

            Originally posted by LoveRPi View Post
            Throwing hardware at developers is the easiest thing in the world and cost next to nothing. An hour of professional software development is worth 10 dev boards. Please don't try to compare the two companies or products or open source support because there is nothing in common.
            This is something you have wrong. Both pine and librem 5 shipped out development boards to developers. Pine was successful at shipping out working boards to developers first. Shipping out development boards that don't work end up with professional software developers working on something else that works instead.

            In some ways the pinephone will partly save Purism phones ass. From a userspace application side the 4 core A53 processor design in the i.MX.8 and A64 are the same. The GPU is different Vivante GC7000 in the i.MX.8 and Mali 400 MP2 in the A64.

            Does not matter how many software developers you have if your hardware does not work.

            Hardware also means needing experience dealing with FCC and equal.

            Really both Pine and Purism bring two different sides to the problem. The application side for the Purism device would be a lot worst place if pine had not been putting out working development boards for developer to work with.


            Pine does not do the cheapest possible. Pine does the cheapest possible hardware that is reliable. Pine does not have the strictest rules on software. We do need a company in the mix who prime focus is getting dependable hardware into developers hands to work with.

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            • #76
              Originally posted by danmcgrew View Post
              PLEASE don't try to try and disguise your fanboy-ism behind a faux cloak of objectivity, "LOVE RPi".
              Have no fanboy-ism so don't know what you are talking about. The last few generations of RPi hardware has been mediocre at best and full of proprietary non-sense. Good job making claims without basis and contrary to fact. Anyone who thinks any thought went into "design" after taking a look at any of Pine's SBCs is delusional.

              https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-a1a2...=2?imbypass=on
              https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/18...g?v=1524512481
              http://files.pine64.org/wiki/PINE%20A64.png

              Someone chewed up a bunch of ports and pin and spit it out randomly on a PCB. Anyone who knows how to design proper products will not use an SoC with a broken timer (A64).
              https://lore.kernel.org/patchwork/cover/904606/

              Facts are too hard for fanboys.

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              • #77

                Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
                Hardware design is the ultimate bitch. It's like software development, but each time you compile you pay thousands of $$.
                Send a subsystem patch to upstream Linux and let me know how long it takes you to get it merged. Nevermind designing a cohesive product with proper software architecture across multiple layers of stack. It's hard to screw up hardware repeatedly but there are some talented companies namely Raspberry Pi and Pine.
                Last edited by LoveRPi; 09-06-2019, 09:07 PM.

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                • #78
                  Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
                  http://bkhome.org/news/201902/pineph...pment-kit.html you have just mentioned one of the biggest problems with librem 5 its been the i.MX 8.

                  Yes Pine is a manufacturer management company meaning they are experienced getting boards out the door that in fact work by using chips that are already mass produced in volume and are dependable supply.
                  iMX8M is a proper chip designed for the use-case (phone). A64 is not working: https://lore.kernel.org/patchwork/cover/904606/


                  Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
                  In some ways the pinephone will partly save Purism phones ass. From a userspace application side the 4 core A53 processor design in the i.MX.8 and A64 are the same. The GPU is different Vivante GC7000 in the i.MX.8 and Mali 400 MP2 in the A64.
                  Mali 400 is far inferior to Vivante both in software and hardware. Mali 450 is a huge improvement on Mali 400 and can run a lot more shaders. Vivante is a class above that with OpenGL ES 3.x and compute shaders. It is a "modern" unified shader GPU where as Mali 4xx is obsolete in terms of design.

                  Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
                  Does not matter how many software developers you have if your hardware does not work.
                  PinePhone's choice of A64 has an unfixable timer bug that prevents basic things like tracking time. Kernel and userspace will go haywire and corrupt things because of this. This is a non-starter any rational product company. That's like having a car without circular wheels.

                  Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
                  Hardware also means needing experience dealing with FCC and equal.
                  PinePhone cannot be FCC certified because of its hardware design. Legally you can't use it on any provider's network.

                  Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
                  Pine does not do the cheapest possible. Pine does the cheapest possible hardware that is reliable. Pine does not have the strictest rules on software. We do need a company in the mix who prime focus is getting dependable hardware into developers hands to work with.
                  https://forum.armbian.com/topic/9775...4-revision-30/
                  https://forum.pine64.org/showthread.php?tid=6176

                  I mean basic stuff here. It's cool to have options but it's not cool to half-ass everything and pretend to be a coherent product. Purism was in over its head but they're trying their damnest and at least following a proper process. It's crowdfunding for a reason with a meaningful goal.
                  Last edited by LoveRPi; 09-06-2019, 11:12 PM.

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                  • #79
                    Originally posted by LoveRPi View Post

                    Have no fanboy-ism
                    He thinks you do due to your username.

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                    • #80
                      Originally posted by LoveRPi View Post
                      Send a subsystem patch to upstream Linux and let me know how long it takes you to get it merged. Nevermind designing a cohesive product with proper software architecture across multiple layers of stack. It's hard to screw up hardware repeatedly but there are some talented companies namely Raspberry Pi and Pine.
                      Lol no you are comparing "trying to merge something into a project with high standards and lots of bikeshedding" with "going on your own".

                      Raspi hardware-design-wise is a piece of shit (see the project of reverse-engineering the board boot firmware for example), same goes for the PoE hat. But they are on their own. There is no "upstream", no gatekeepers. As long as it works at all it's good.
                      Same approach that they follow with their own Linux distro, they are using a hacked downstream kernel fork, where they have full control and can do as they please.

                      I can't speak for Pine as I don't follow them that much, but again there is none judging them or vetoing their designs.

                      And we are still talking of basic and simple stuff, low power SoCs with high integration and limited connectivity.

                      Even just moving into more powerful stuff like Marvell Armada and you see that everyone and their dog buys SoMs because it's so much cheaper than having to design themselves.

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