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Librem 5 Will Begin Shipping In The Weeks Ahead, But Varying Quality Over Months Ahead

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  • #91
    Originally posted by Dr. λ View Post
    There is not. The Librem 5 is not priced for it's performance level. The Librem 5 is priced for it's security, privacy, and liberty. And it is the best phone on the near-future market in all of those three regards. If you thought that the price of the Librem 5 was for it's performance level then you are missing the point of the Librem 5.
    Sorry to say Librem 5 is not best that been for those 3 points. Security privacy and liberty the best that ever been goes to the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openmoko Openmoko made devices were even the base-band processor code was open source. Unfortunately due to the modem standards for cellular getting more restrictive they are basically bricks today in most countries due to the baseband only being able to be 2G. Yes Librem 5 found out that 3G standard you can read it but you cannot implemented it without paying out a patent fees.

    So we have already seen the result of pricing for security, privacy and liberty is a short term product before the vendors and regulators change the rules on you. Only way to block this is have enough volume in the market that the regulator will be effecting too many people.

    So those wanting a Librem 5 phone to keep on being useful need something like the pinephone priced on performance to sell volume. Yes selling volume means successfully selling to people who don't value security, privacy or liberty as highly.

    So we need a phone in ideal made for security, privacy, liberty, performance and price. So yes ideal we need to hit all 5 points. If you don't hit all 5 points history is clear item will be temporary free.

    Please note security and privacy do play into performance like how much performance is android phone in fact losing to processing items that invade users privacy.

    My problem is Librem 5 risks being a one shot item that does not sell enough volume and end up as a vendor regulated/patented out the market.

    The idea that you can price on security, privacy and liberty is a fatally flawed one in the mobile space and is basically like putting a kick me sign on your back to become a screwed over company.


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    • #92
      Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

      Sorry to say Librem 5 is not best that been for those 3 points. Security privacy and liberty the best that ever been goes to the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openmoko Openmoko made devices were even the base-band processor code was open source. Unfortunately due to the modem standards for cellular getting more restrictive they are basically bricks today in most countries due to the baseband only being able to be 2G. Yes Librem 5 found out that 3G standard you can read it but you cannot implemented it without paying out a patent fees.
      The Librem 5 has a replaceable modem allowing it the possibility to cope with this better than the Freerunner can.

      Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
      So we have already seen the result of pricing for security, privacy and liberty is a short term product before the vendors and regulators change the rules on you. Only way to block this is have enough volume in the market that the regulator will be effecting too many people.

      So those wanting a Librem 5 phone to keep on being useful need something like the pinephone priced on performance to sell volume. Yes selling volume means successfully selling to people who don't value security, privacy or liberty as highly.

      So we need a phone in ideal made for security, privacy, liberty, performance and price. So yes ideal we need to hit all 5 points. If you don't hit all 5 points history is clear item will be temporary free.

      Please note security and privacy do play into performance like how much performance is android phone in fact losing to processing items that invade users privacy.

      My problem is Librem 5 risks being a one shot item that does not sell enough volume and end up as a vendor regulated/patented out the market.

      The idea that you can price on security, privacy and liberty is a fatally flawed one in the mobile space and is basically like putting a kick me sign on your back to become a screwed over company.

      Even if this is true then that just means that our only options are no privacy or temporary privacy. That still makes the Librem 5 the best phone since in that case it clearly goes for temporary privacy.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by Dr. λ View Post
        The Librem 5 has a replaceable modem allowing it the possibility to cope with this better than the Freerunner can.
        No it does not really do better than the Freerunner can. The pine wifi modem where the FCC ID is that of the full device says the replaceable modem feature of the Librem 5 may end up a legal brick.

        So we still need parties doing what pine microsystems is doing of getting there own IMEI number and modems made up. Yes you have to remember IMEI numbers have to be on the carriers list as approved and it possible for the carrier to approve a m.2 card IMEI as data only even if it support voice and sms this is why there are multi levels how librem 5 can be bricked.

        Yes carrier can for sure argue they disabled particular m.2 voice/sms features at tower by IMEI because the m.2 card was not sold for phone usage. Now pinephone integrated modem the device was sold as a phone.

        Basically depending on who you carrier is will be if a libre5 or pinephone will work. Heck there is even a chance that neither will work because carrier effective blacklists both out of existence.

        Originally posted by Dr. λ View Post
        Even if this is true then that just means that our only options are no privacy or temporary privacy. That still makes the Librem 5 the best phone since in that case it clearly goes for temporary privacy.
        Pinephone is also going in direction of temporary privacy with as much as possible. We really do need multi parties pushing the FCC and parties to get rulings in the direction of security privacy and liberty. Problem is those parties to have negotiation power with FCC and silicon makers they need volume of sales.

        A party buying and using a pinephone or libre5 phone helps with having displayable volume of users possibly looking for security, privacy and liberty. Pinephone being possible cost effective will increase those numbers that will help in arguments with regulators and carriers.

        Really you have underestimated how bad of a fight we are in for. Now if you carrier does not support librem 5 is not pinephone better than going back to generic android device?

        Like it or not we need both the librem5 and pinephone configuration with modem in the current market because it going to be a up hill battle if either device works with different carriers.

        https://www.youtube.com/embed/8V711I...destbranding=0

        Other than the embedded firmware in the wifi/modem devices there are already developers who have software for the pinephone that is basically as free as the Librem 5 planned offering.

        So software difference is not that big. Now if librem 5 had option of open source 2G modern with 3g coming when patents die and so on it would make it a more interesting product.

        Yes the neo freerunner does leave leave behind this tech.
        Last edited by oiaohm; 09-09-2019, 07:21 AM.

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        • #94
          It seems that I gave off the impression that I think getting privacy is going to be easy and that I think that the Pinephone is bad. But I know that getting privacy is an uphill battle and considering the fact that many powerful organisations —including governments— profit greatly from our lack of privacy, that does not surprise me at all. I also think that the Pinephone is a great phone and much better than both Android and Apple devices.

          As for the Neofreerunner, I used it as my main phone in approximately 2013. It was great phone, except that it bricked itself when the battery ran completely dry. If not for that mayor design flaw I would probably still be using it since where I live we can still use GSM.

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          • #95
            Originally posted by DMJC View Post
            The Pine phone and the Librem5 both have the same problem: Not enough RAM. I had a Motorola Atrix phone back in 2011/2012. 1gb of ram was pathetic on a phone back then. Just as 2-3gb is pathetic now. These open source phones really need to lift the amount of RAM to 4-6GB. Especially if people want to use them as a laptop replacement. The killer app for a modern Linux phone should be to plug it into a screen/keyboard/mouse and be able to use it for programming/network engineering replacing a laptop. The problem is none of these phones have enough RAM to do that. Storage is no longer an issue. 400-500GB SDCards are cheap. The lack of RAM is a real problem. The other main use of these phones is adblock on internet connections.
            It's true, not enough RAM.
            You could plug the phone into a monitor and keyboard, then ssh or VNC into that old dusty desktop tower in a corner (doesn't need working or reliable peripherals just connection to the network), run a web browser there.
            Alternatively, use an existing desktop or laptop (possibly lacking in RAM itself) and ssh or VNC into the phone. Doesn't even need a special USB-C to HDMI cable and compatible monitor, nor a hub so this is a cheaper way to do "convergence".

            In both cases, you can fill up the desktop/laptop's RAM with a browser, which is all to easy to do even just reading pages with ads blocked and javascript disabled.
            You still have RAM and CPU free on the phone to run your things, projects, even another browser.



            Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

            Really $1200 dollar target most phones there are about the same specifications as a 700 dollar phone. 1200 dollar would have given the space to hide the cost of being modular.

            Some ways I agree Librem5 targeted the wrong price bracket. Instead of targeting 700 dollar price bracket targeted the 1000 dollar instead they would have had the space in budget to cover the extra costs of modular while being feature competitive with the phones in that price bracket. Target too low does mean you do have to compromise different specifications to get device out door and cover production costs.

            But for their first phone not going all out still could turn out good in the end.

            Like it will be possible for a librem5 to have a main-board upgradewe did see this with the Neo 1973 and the Neo Freerunner. The librem5 avoids the Neo patent wall problem to use 3g/4g with the modular design.
            No (in my opinion). They needed to go with that I.MX CPU, it has at best (or any better one in its family) an absolute memory ceiling of 4GB. For this money you can go with a 12GB phone and play in sandboxes or emulators although with the exploitive Android devil beneath.
            Using a 2160x1080 panel with this CPU, and you'll make the phone slower and hotter. I tried Cinnamon 4.0 on Core 2 vintage Intel graphics and it ran heinously, locked at 30 fps, at 768p. Like, I thought this would powerful enough but no it simulates 30Hz even in minesweeper or shells/editors. So don't ask too much of the GPU of an "embedded, multimedia or automotive" SoC on real linux.

            The more likely SoC vendor to be useful for a higher end phone would be Qualcomm (Snapdragon). They intend to support linux with a graphics driver but I have no idea how things are going. Also one of the only vendors that runs non-Android as they run Windows. Buying a Windows ARM laptop to run Linux would seem weird since there's worry of Microsoft completely locking them, and no shortage of x86 laptops.
            In anyway, going with Qualcomm in a hope that maybe it'll be supported after it is too late doesn't make sense! and will never reach any Stallman-compatible goal.

            It is possible that Pine and Purism and the dev community and the Purism devs would create the demand for mobile real linux, which would then motivate Qualcomm to support it as well. (who would bother launching a Snapdragon 845 or better phone or tablet with crashy, amateur, buggy, incomplete GNU/linux images and distros?)

            Very few people ever ran real linux on an ARM (or MIPS) desktop or laptop, or real linux on any phone. There were probably more Firefox OS users. Perhaps Tegra K1 and X1 are an exception, with PC-based GPUs and the proprietary nvidia Xorg driver. Even then, no Tegra phone (with earlier GPUs) ever ran linux.
            Of note, an I.MX51 series netbook existed in 2009! and with a 3G modem.
            https://genesi.company/products/smartbook

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            • #96
              "This week in DistroWatch Weekly:
              ...
              News: ... , PinePhone coming soon with Plasma Mobile and UBports, ...
              ...”

              “... In a blog post titled The PinePhone Is Real & Shipping Soon, PINE64 announced that the PinePhone's hardware has been finalized and devices will begin shipping to developers in October 2019. After that, the team plans to make last minute adjustments and improvements and deliver their mobile phone to customers in the early months of 2020. "Developer pre-orders are now live and it won't be long before core enthusiasts get their hands on the PinePhone too. This is just the start of our journey with the PinePhone, but with both software and hardware progressing at Warp 10 speed I am confident that in early 2020 everyone interested in a Linux phone will be able to purchase one." The blog post includes pictures and videos of the PinePhone in operation, running UBports and KDE's Plasma Mobile...”


              https://distrowatch.com/

              https://www.pine64.org/2019/09/05/se...shipping-soon/
              Last edited by danmcgrew; 09-09-2019, 10:38 AM.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by grok View Post
                No (in my opinion). They needed to go with that I.MX CPU, it has at best (or any better one in its family) an absolute memory ceiling of 4GB. For this money you can go with a 12GB phone and play in sandboxes or emulators although with the exploitive Android devil beneath.
                Using a 2160x1080 panel with this CPU, and you'll make the phone slower and hotter. I tried Cinnamon 4.0 on Core 2 vintage Intel graphics and it ran heinously, locked at 30 fps, at 768p. Like, I thought this would powerful enough but no it simulates 30Hz even in minesweeper or shells/editors. So don't ask too much of the GPU of an "embedded, multimedia or automotive" SoC on real linux.
                Phones these heat problems are worst than you think. You are luck to get any soc for a phone that support 8G of ram most are 4G or less. Power and heat are your two biggest bug bears. Interface on phones will have to be done different than desktop because you don't have the heat budget to drive cpu or gpu anywhere near as hard.

                Originally posted by grok View Post
                The more likely SoC vendor to be useful for a higher end phone would be Qualcomm (Snapdragon). They intend to support linux with a graphics driver but I have no idea how things are going. Also one of the only vendors that runs non-Android as they run Windows. Buying a Windows ARM laptop to run Linux would seem weird since there's worry of Microsoft completely locking them, and no shortage of x86 laptops.
                Qualcomm is working on Linux support but in phone chips they want to do integrated wifi and cellular modem into soc.
                https://thehackernews.com/2019/08/an...erability.html
                Badly integrated into soc. So you can call all the current Qualcomm mobile class chips broken crap. Forget the Stallman-compatible goal as even a problem here. You don't have proper separation between wifi and cellular and the application processor.

                Originally posted by grok View Post
                It is possible that Pine and Purism and the dev community and the Purism devs would create the demand for mobile real linux, which would then motivate Qualcomm to support it as well. (who would bother launching a Snapdragon 845 or better phone or tablet with crashy, amateur, buggy, incomplete GNU/linux images and distros?)
                Pine and Purism development in hardware at least has the basics right. Anyone who did a proper audit on the Snapdragon 845 would have found what as documented above. Qualcomm like having you sign NDA so that you cannot publicly report chip defects.

                The A64 chip chosen by pine may have a few issues one being max possible ram being 3G. Really I don't understand why they librem5 has 3 G of ram on a soc that in fact supports 4G of ram other than possible stupid cost cutting.

                I really do find it funny that Microsoft make a deal with Qualcomm to be Microsoft exclusive arm processor vendor when Qualcomm chips are in fact totally security busted.

                Why would I want a phone with a Qualcomm chip core if I could avoid it thinking its a totally screwed up design from security. The idea that you wifi and celular binary blobs can access and change every single bit of memory inside you phone from their decanted processors did not set of alarm bells inside Qualcomm for some reason.

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                • #98
                  Lenovo Yoga C630 WOS owner here.

                  Originally posted by grok View Post
                  The more likely SoC vendor to be useful for a higher end phone would be Qualcomm (Snapdragon). They intend to support linux with a graphics driver but I have no idea how things are going.
                  Freedreno works on Adreno 630 just fine.

                  Originally posted by grok View Post
                  Buying a Windows ARM laptop to run Linux would seem weird since there's worry of Microsoft completely locking them
                  Wired BIOS update could indeed break something, but BIOS updates delivered only via Windows Update to these laptops, so as soon as you installed Linux you can no longer worry about this.

                  Originally posted by grok View Post
                  and no shortage of x86 laptops.
                  There is exactly zero x86 laptops that can survive for 15 hours with ~50% brightness and active LTE connection. I don't need exactly 15 hours, but 5 hours that best x86 laptops can provide (medium to high brightness and active LTE, remember) is not enough for sure. If that would be desktop, server, nettop, SBC or something else, then it would be different conversation, but if we talking about laptops - then we talking about battery life, and x86 laptops loose this particular battle.

                  Originally posted by grok View Post
                  Very few people ever ran real linux on an ARM (or MIPS) desktop or laptop
                  True, but with availability of projects such as Armbian and Panfrost and fast boards like ROCKPro64 and ODROID-N2 more and more people use ARM-based SBC as desktop. I currently testing Panfrost on NanoPC-T4, and you know how I get Panforst up and running? Just installed Linux 5.3 from Armbian repo and updated Mesa from Oibaf PPA - things get much easier this days on ARM.
                  Last edited by RussianNeuroMancer; 09-10-2019, 04:10 AM.

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by RussianNeuroMancer View Post
                    Wired BIOS update could indeed break something, but BIOS updates delivered only via Windows Update to these laptops, so as soon as you installed Linux you can no longer worry about this.
                    Unfortunately by those who cracked the Qualcomm chips with integrated cellular modem its possible for BIOS updates to be delivered due to application in sim if carrier decided to go this route. Proper separation between wifi and cellular modem parts to application cpu are kind of important.

                    active LTE connection<< That a problem. There is not proper separation on hardware access around that modem. Hopefully next generation snapdragon deal with this.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by RussianNeuroMancer View Post
                      There is exactly zero x86 laptops that can survive for 15 hours with ~50% brightness and active LTE connection. I don't need exactly 15 hours, but 5 hours that best x86 laptops can provide (medium to high brightness and active LTE, remember) is not enough for sure.
                      I think I can push my X1C6 to 7 hours under these conditions. That's while actively using Firefox, even (which is not exactly known for conserving CPU time). Full idle under these conditions is 10 hours.
                      Last edited by intelfx; 09-10-2019, 06:01 PM.

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