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Steam Dev Days: VR, VR, VR; Valve Looking To Contract Mesa Developers For AMD Work

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  • #11
    Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
    Out of curiosity, do the closed-source Nvidia drivers support OpenVR? I suppose Valve/HTC isn't really in a position to be demanding Nvidia what to do with their own drivers, but I find it a little weird that they seem to be only targeting AMD right now. Not that I have a problem with that - Mesa devs deserve all the cash they get thrown at them.
    Nvidia Pascal GPUs even have native support for all that stuff and a bunch of OpenGL Extensions for that.

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    • #12
      Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
      Out of curiosity, do the closed-source Nvidia drivers support OpenVR? I suppose Valve/HTC isn't really in a position to be demanding Nvidia what to do with their own drivers, but I find it a little weird that they seem to be only targeting AMD right now. Not that I have a problem with that - Mesa devs deserve all the cash they get thrown at them.
      Yup, glad to see they work with the whole ecosystem, I hope to see NVidia and AMD on par on Linux like they are on Windows.

      juno : and they did a lot of work with NVidia to improve their drivers with good results, since SteamOs project started.

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      • #13
        Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
        I suppose Valve/HTC isn't really in a position to be demanding Nvidia what to do with their own drivers, but I find it a little weird that they seem to be only targeting AMD right now.
        it would be smarter to suppose that valve is not going to sponsor work on nvidia proprietary shit even if that was not complicated by the fact that you can't work on something without sources

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        • #14
          Originally posted by pal666 View Post
          it would be smarter to suppose that valve is not going to sponsor work on nvidia proprietary shit even if that was not complicated by the fact that you can't work on something without sources
          That would be true if Valve shared your perspective, which is a rash presumption considering nearly all (or maybe all, I'm not sure) software and hardware created by Valve is not open source. Anyway, you absolutely can work on something without sources, though it can complicate things. I don't fully understand how OpenVR works, but I am pretty sure all GPU vendors did not create anything hardware-specific for it. Just like OpenCV, you can get GPU acceleration via OpenCL or CUDA, implying that you can get GPU acceleration without requiring to get through closed-source drivers. Obviously if OpenCV could access the GPU directly and not rely on OpenCL, it may perform better. I figure OpenVR wouldn't be all that demanding, but considering latency is arguably the most important factor for VR, that could be why bypassing OpenCL is a priority.

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          • #15
            Originally posted by pal666 View Post
            it would be smarter to suppose that valve is not going to sponsor work on nvidia proprietary shit even if that was not complicated by the fact that you can't work on something without sources
            It seems that you have no recent experience of Nvidia Linux driver. On all our Nvidia cards what we have had, Nvidia Linux driver works without problems. We have/had GT 6600, 8400, GT440 and 750ti. I did sold my kids gt440 gaming pc and I am building new one using my A8-7600.

            The kid loves to play the Star Stable game, but on LG W1942T the amdgpu driver stack does not give any resolutions of the monitor and the game runs at 1024x768 when video settings are touched. And you have to be a software engineer to use amd open source drivers. .We need to switch the monitor to 20 inch and then the game works with the amdgpu driver without graphical problems. I tested with radeon and amdgpu-pro drivers, same problem.

            Nvidia Linux driver is as good as the windows driver, amd drivers are a far cry of it. Despite of of this I did buy rx460 for me, because I am a software engineer and Nvidia cards are pricey.

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            • #16
              Originally posted by bibaheu View Post
              They should release Linux themed objects on the CS:GO. That will fund pretty well all the developers working on making Linux gaming possible
              Why? Valve is perfectly capable of paying developers without needing to extract even more money from their users.

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              • #17
                eydee Thanks for the reply. I think you didn't quite get my point, so let me elaborate.

                This is not about Nvidia vs. AMD vs. Intel. Valve is competing with Microsoft, as they want to establish their platform against Windows. Valve depends on collaboration w/ the hardware manufacturers, driver/platform AND game devs and vice versa.

                Currently, SteamOS is nowhere near Windows. The amount of games on Steam (not talking about big pulishers that don't even release on [email protected]), performance and quality of the games is a joke on SteamOS, tbh. Valve can't be blamed for all of that, obviously, but IMHO they can be blamed for being 'conservative'.

                There are demanding games and there are non-demanding games in terms of graphics hardware. The most demanding games don't run on Linux, many others have problems w/ free drivers. Some are Nvidia-exclusive, locking out half of the possible customers. Leaving the non-demanding games. You can't ignore Intel from this, as there are plenty non-demanding games that run well on Intel, or even better than on AMD hardware.

                And, btw, yes. radeonsi works out quite nicely over the time. It has not always been like this. And which Mesa and Kernel versions does SteamOS use again?

                Also, I don't care about amdgpu-pro vs radeonsi. Well, actually, I care, but that's not the point. The point is the comparison of the experience on Windows vs. those on SteamOS using the same hardware and any easily available or out of the box driver. And as radeonsi seems to be emerging as the preferable solution more and more, 'any' basically boils down to radeonsi. So, compare again and tell me there is no difference.
                So, switching from Windows to Linux for gaming with steam is currently a downgrade for the users. Valve could have paid devs to work on the projects like mesa or wayland compositors. It is their platform and they should have the motivation to offer a nice experience. Microsoft does the same with the Xbox and Sony with the PS etc.
                Also, having Nvidia-only titles is a no-go. Valve could and should have been doing something about that, imho, but nothing ever happened.

                Don't get me wrong. I'm looking forward to and appreciate every improvement, even this, from which I'll probably not benefit anytime. But I can't stand companies being praised or celebrated for being or doing what they aren't.

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                • #18
                  Originally posted by juno View Post
                  LOL, they should have paid people to work on mesa and other projects since they first came up with SteamOS and Steam machines.
                  Now it's only 3 years too late.

                  But who the hell needs a decent graphics stack on a gaming platform anyway? ONLY VR!!! /s
                  Exactly, but even if you read the AMD docs, nothing is obvious on how to program their cards. So, waht thye should be doing is writing documentation to get people started. The more people who can contribute, the better, but the entry is just so fucking hard because the source isn't documented, the documents aren't actually obvious at all, so trying to get into it is nigh on impossible.

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                  • #19
                    Originally posted by microcode View Post
                    This is excellent news, I was sorta waiting for AMD to go whole-hog on it, but if Valve is paying it's basically as good or better. AMD releases comprehensive hardware documentation, this is exactly the sort of thing it is there for. Great work, RadeonSI folks. :- )
                    But Valve should've shoved a ton of cash at AMD years ago to sort out their driver's, we're still in a fucked position. The devs are focussing on newer parts and some private individuals are looking more at SI, so the people in the middle with CIK parts are getting royally fucked. This could and should've been sorted years ago. Valve has the capacity to sort this, but they fucked it up. They seem to have an inability to stick to anything. It's really annoying.

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                    • #20
                      Originally posted by juno View Post
                      eydee Thanks for the reply. I think you didn't quite get my point, so let me elaborate.

                      This is not about Nvidia vs. AMD vs. Intel. Valve is competing with Microsoft, as they want to establish their platform against Windows. Valve depends on collaboration w/ the hardware manufacturers, driver/platform AND game devs and vice versa.
                      If they really wanted this, they'd 1) put more money into it, 2) really help with pushing it rather than sitting back and hoping shit'll change.

                      Originally posted by juno View Post
                      Currently, SteamOS is nowhere near Windows. The amount of games on Steam (not talking about big pulishers that don't even release on [email protected]), performance and quality of the games is a joke on SteamOS, tbh. Valve can't be blamed for all of that, obviously, but IMHO they can be blamed for being 'conservative'.
                      Again, if they really wanted to,Valve could put actualy money behind the various publishers, this is exactly that M$ and Sony do;

                      MS/Sony: We want your game as an exclusive to shitbox/PS
                      Dev: Ok, it'll cost £x, where 'x' is a large amount.

                      Originally posted by juno View Post
                      There are demanding games and there are non-demanding games in terms of graphics hardware. The most demanding games don't run on Linux, many others have problems w/ free drivers. Some are Nvidia-exclusive, locking out half of the possible customers. Leaving the non-demanding games. You can't ignore Intel from this, as there are plenty non-demanding games that run well on Intel, or even better than on AMD hardware.
                      Again, Valve could do something about this by ensuring quality standards and that produces shipped on Steam worked on athe platform no matter what gfx card was in there. In fact, if they really did their job right, it might actuallyu scare/force nVidia into releasing open drivers.

                      Originally posted by juno View Post
                      And, btw, yes. radeonsi works out quite nicely over the time. It has not always been like this. And which Mesa and Kernel versions does SteamOS use again?
                      It shouldn't matter which version of various software components a user has installed. But we should be able to install the latest versions without being hindered (see below).

                      Originally posted by juno View Post
                      Also, I don't care about amdgpu-pro vs radeonsi. Well, actually, I care, but that's not the point. The point is the comparison of the experience on Windows vs. those
                      I do. I want as much open as possible. I don't want all this, we'll only packahge for Ubuntu, not everyone uses Ubuntu! In fact, most don't. Yet we're stuck with blobs that are built with ancient versions of the libs, just ebcause Ubuntu use them. I've asked for the patches required for libdrm, as this is a main blocker to getting the blobs working on more recent components. It's not hard to go into the libdrm sources you have and just pull out the patches you're using and make them available, but as I've been told, "it's not going to happen soon." No wonder someone else decided to write a Vulkan driver for AMD, because AMD are taking way too long in releasing theirs - like they said, when was that again?

                      Originally posted by juno View Post
                      on SteamOS using the same hardware and any easily available or out of the box driver. And as radeonsi seems to be emerging as the preferable solution more and more, 'any' basically boils down to radeonsi. So, compare again and tell me there is no difference.
                      And yest radeonsi is a dead end for modern cards, we should be using amdgpu, but we can't fully, because of lacking patches. More work seems to be happening in radeonsi than amdgpu - er, the future of amd drivers, yet lacking.

                      Originally posted by juno View Post
                      So, switching from Windows to Linux for gaming with steam is currently a downgrade for the users. Valve could have paid devs to work on the projects like mesa or wayland compositors. It is their platform and they should have the motivation to offer a nice experience. Microsoft does the same with the Xbox and Sony with the PS etc.
                      Exactly, but Valve doesn't like to get involved. They like to start a fight, but not finish it. Valve chose Linux for SteamOS, they decided it was a good idea, then fucked off and did nothing for years instead of actually backing it. I just don't get it; unless of course, it was just an empty threat to microsoft.

                      Originally posted by juno View Post
                      Also, having Nvidia-only titles is a no-go. Valve could and should have been doing something about that, imho, but nothing ever happened.
                      Again, this is something that Valve should be addressing, just like they should be addressing wraps instead of actual ports, games that support DX12 on windows, should be ported to Vulkan on Linux, but that doesn't seem to be happening. Companies are doing GL or Metal ports to Mac, but not bothering at all for Linux.

                      Originally posted by juno View Post
                      Don't get me wrong. I'm looking forward to and appreciate every improvement, even this, from which I'll probably not benefit anytime. But I can't stand companies being praised or celebrated for being or doing what they aren't.
                      It's happening way too slow and for someone who has put in a lot of money on AMD's hardware, I'm not currently happy and I want them tu pull their fucking fingers out and start releasing more and more often. This whole "we can't release the patches because no open driver uses it" is bullshit, release the patch and maybe an open driver will use it.

                      AMD MAKE YOUR SHIT AVAILABLE TO PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT ON UBUNTU AND NEVER WILL BE, FFS!

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