Put the wish list for porting projects HERE...

[niniendowarrior]

It's final? That means there wont be any more patches to NWN? How do you know??

No more patches. 1.69 is the final patch from Bioware. They announced that a few months back. It contained bug fixes (introduced a bug in the sleep spell) and contains all the content updates of all the premium modules (sans the premium modules themselves). So, it contains the portraits and data files of the premium modules as well as some additional content such as horseback riding on Wyvern of Cormyrr. That's that. Bioware is moving on and I have to say, a patch released in 2008 for a game that was back in 2002 is pretty damn good support.

[Svartalf]

Svartalf, what do you think would be the chances of Bioware letting you guys re-release NWN with all the patches now that it's final, along with the possibility of revamping it a bit to support openAL (for multichannel sound) and proper movie support?

Odds aren't good.

1) Getting proper movie support would entail either licensing Bink for Linux to the tune of $5k or transcoding the stuff to Theora. There may be a license requirement for the Windows side libraries that requires you to use Bink everywhere. One might be bound to paying an additional $5k above and beyond any rights access one might need to retain to get the shot at doing this.

2) While they might let Aurora be re-worked, I don't think the publisher would be all too keen on a Linux re-spin. They did, as you well know, ignore the reality that a third or more of their NWN user base was Linux users when they had the sequel come out. They actually went out of their way to make a DirectX respin of the engine to make NWN2. Do you think Atari (who holds the publication rights to NWN...) would let that come about right at the moment?

3) Even if Bioware retained enough rights to allow it to happen, their new owner, EA, probably wouldn't let it happen either.

However, they held the course with it for us. There might be a chance- so I'm not going to say it's dead. Just a "maybe" and reflect it as such.

[niniendowarrior]

1) Getting proper movie support would entail either licensing Bink for Linux to the tune of $5k or transcoding the stuff to Theora. There may be a license requirement for the Windows side libraries that requires you to use Bink everywhere. One might be bound to paying an additional $5k above and beyond any rights access one might need to retain to get the shot at doing this.

This is one part we don't see eye-to-eye. Fact of the matter is my NWN install on Linux right now plays all those bink video cutscenes just fine through the work of the nwmovies folks. As far as video playback is concerned, it's already done and I doubt it changes the Bink license any more than adding "distributing BinkPlayer for Linux thing is not officially supported or what not."

[Thetargos]

IIRC the version sold through Tux Games had the movie files re-encoded as MPEG, so re-encoding them wouldn't be necessary, or a license for Bink. The worry some part is that pertaining EA, BioWare and Atari... that "rights" conundrum could prove hard to chew.

[Svartalf]

This is one part we don't see eye-to-eye. Fact of the matter is my NWN install on Linux right now plays all those bink video cutscenes just fine through the work of the nwmovies folks. As far as video playback is concerned, it's already done and I doubt it changes the Bink license any more than adding "distributing BinkPlayer for Linux thing is not officially supported or what not."

You don't get it. In order for someone to distribute Bink with the title, they have to pay RAD $5k for any given platform it's used with. If LGP does this, they HAVE to cough up $5k or not be licensed to it (and thereby commit Copyright infringement...). It's not a matter of "seeing eye to eye" or that it's not been done- it's that another player HAS to get their due in addition to Bioware and their publisher to do Bink playback.

RAD charges $5k per PLATFORM for Bink and pretty much any of their other libraries. If you use Bink on Windows, in order to do MacOS, you pay them another $5k. If you want it on Linux, it's another $5k. The nwnmovies people are "cheating" in that they provide a means for you to drive their freely offered for PERSONAL USE player to play the cutscenes. LGP can't do things that way, nor can we SELL a product that does this.

[Svartalf]

IIRC the version sold through Tux Games had the movie files re-encoded as MPEG, so re-encoding them wouldn't be necessary, or a license for Bink. The worry some part is that pertaining EA, BioWare and Atari... that "rights" conundrum could prove hard to chew.

The problem might be that the players can't allow it to be re-encoded (If it were as simple as encoding it MPEG2, Bioware would have DONE that, there WERE solid player engines for Linux and they could have transcoded with their install, provided Linux video files, etc...)- you may be seeing the result of using Bink. I don't know what all the licensing terms are (You have to buy a license for it to see the full disclosure there...) and it may be that you have to use Bink wherever you go- period. If the licensing states something like this, you HAVE to use it that way. In the case you mention, you have a situation where the video doesn't play (If it does, that's a boo-boo...I wouldn't be doing it as it's something a court wouldn't see that it wasn't an infringement...) as cutscenes within the title. Moreover, you have a situation with MPEG2, where you owe ROYALTIES to Fraunhoffer amongst others, for the player engine. Most of the people are skirting the rules there if they're using MPEG2 or MPEG4. Theora, however, is a better bet and with it fully gelled, one could probably avoid most of those issues with the stuff transcoded to it from the Bink feed- IF it's allowed by license accordingly. It may not be, based on the facts I've previously mentioned.

[Thetargos]

The problem might be that the players can't allow it to be re-encoded (If it were as simple as encoding it MPEG2, Bioware would have DONE that, there WERE solid player engines for Linux and they could have transcoded with their install, provided Linux video files, etc...)- you may be seeing the result of using Bink. I don't know what all the licensing terms are (You have to buy a license for it to see the full disclosure there...) and it may be that you have to use Bink wherever you go- period. If the licensing states something like this, you HAVE to use it that way. In the case you mention, you have a situation where the video doesn't play (If it does, that's a boo-boo...I wouldn't be doing it as it's something a court wouldn't see that it wasn't an infringement...) as cutscenes within the title. Moreover, you have a situation with MPEG2, where you owe ROYALTIES to Fraunhoffer amongst others, for the player engine. Most of the people are skirting the rules there if they're using MPEG2 or MPEG4. Theora, however, is a better bet and with it fully gelled, one could probably avoid most of those issues with the stuff transcoded to it from the Bink feed- IF it's allowed by license accordingly. It may not be, based on the facts I've previously mentioned.

If that were the case, how come the version sold through Tux Games had all the movie files in .mpg format? (and it was MPEG-1, with mp2 audio, IIRC). My point being that the movie files have already been distributed through a retail channel in a different format than Bink. So if (quite a BIG IF) the three parties (or four, since you brought up Bink) agree that there could be a re-release of the latest version of NWN, using TuxGames' MPEG movies (here I don't know if transcoding those into Theora would be permitted), I don't see how the movies could be much of an issue (other than client-side support for MPEG files)

[Svartalf]

If that were the case, how come the version sold through Tux Games had all the movie files in .mpg format? (and it was MPEG-1, with mp2 audio, IIRC). My point being that the movie files have already been distributed through a retail channel in a different format than Bink. So if (quite a BIG IF) the three parties (or four, since you brought up Bink) agree that there could be a re-release of the latest version of NWN, using TuxGames' MPEG movies (here I don't know if transcoding those into Theora would be permitted), I don't see how the movies could be much of an issue (other than client-side support for MPEG files)

Heh... It all boils down to what the license is on Bink. If they've got it framed in such that you have to use it on all platforms, you can't have a player with an alternate codec. If it's as simple as you make it out to be, Bioware would have done this themselves and went on. But, they didn't, now did they? Just because a disc was shipped seperately via TuxGames, doesn't make it that the disc was wholly legit, or that you can actually publish a game with it that way even if the disc from TuxGames was clearly approved. Keep in mind, the TuxGames disk is an auto-installer provided by them, not Bioware, that uses the Bioware provided Windows install discs to install with, not an official Linux version.

I'm not saying that what I'm alluding to is the case here- but it all smells fishy if it's all as you and others are saying. If it's that simple why didn't they do it themselves- SMPEG was there for the taking just like SDL was at the time and it wasn't at all hard to use. They could have offered a transcoded set for download of the cutscenes or included it in a little Linux-specific ball of videos easily enough, considering that they weren't all that big and didn't contribute all that much to the game (I was going, "was that all there was?" When I finally saw the cutscenes...). But they did nothing of the sort. Why, then, if there wasn't a licensing type snag going that route?

[xav1r]

Hey Svartalf, would you consider LGP working with the folks behind GoG (good old games) Theyre starting the open beta this week, and theyre not hostile towards linux at all, from the email i got from them. The only reason they arent supporting linux yet is because their team is too small right now, and that they will consider it in the future. I dont think there are IP problems here, since apparently they can sell all the games they are offering with no legal problems. i think im gonna buy a few titles from their catalog, the games are being offered in the same spirit of Linux and free software/open source: no DRM, the games are yours to keep, unlimited copies allowed, etc. And some of the games are good too.

[Svartalf]

Hey Svartalf, would you consider LGP working with the folks behind GoG (good old games) Theyre starting the open beta this week, and theyre not hostile towards linux at all, from the email i got from them. The only reason they arent supporting linux yet is because their team is too small right now, and that they will consider it in the future. I dont think there are IP problems here, since apparently they can sell all the games they are offering with no legal problems. i think im gonna buy a few titles from their catalog, the games are being offered in the same spirit of Linux and free software/open source: no DRM, the games are yours to keep, unlimited copies allowed, etc. And some of the games are good too.

Either them or just myself. I'm still waiting to hear back from Paradox or I'd have contacted them myself- no sense in overbooking myself. With GoG and Gamersgate behind Linux where possible, things would shift at least a little bit in our favor. If you think there's a quicker to start opportunity there, I'll get in touch with them to see if there's a way to get a few titles coming our way that people WILL buy. After all, that IS what this thread is about. As it stands, PM me your contact info from over there- it'll make it easier once I go to ping 'em.