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  • #61
    Originally posted by Squarepusher

    No, just no. You are absolutely insane if you think that Java is anything anyone should actively target. Java is something that people use these days ONLY when thinking about Android apps. That and your usual enterprise and accounting programming stuff (but hey, Java is one hell of a stepup from COBOL I suppose - so they don't really have a frame of reference anyway). For anything else, Java has no shelf life anymore. It is a failed language and it never delivered.
    Except for that whole cross-platform thing with what I understand to be a single compile. Mojang seems to think it delivered just fine. It was the tool they needed to do the job they wanted done. And they've made out quite well as a result.

    The point I'm trying to make is that the end-user doesn't care what you coded your software in. You might as well be arguing over what style of wrench is best to remove bolts. If all you care about is getting the damned thing out, there is no functional difference between open-end, boxed-end, robo-grip, vise-grip, or a cutting torch. Elegance be damned. And so it goes with programming languages.

    Let's say for a second that you're every bit as awesome and experienced in programming as you claim. Or one better, that you're being modest and you're selling your talent short. In fact, you're a god among men in programming circles and yours is a household name among the great unwashed masses...

    You're not selling your product to other programmers.

    The people who buy your software don't care who you are or how awesomely you can code in FORTRAN. They want something that does the job they need done. They want it to work, and work correctly, else they start demanding refunds. The programmer's job, as I understand it, is to use the tools he chooses in the most optimal manner he can manage. If that's Java, then he needs to do the work required to make it behave in a reliable manner. If it's C or C++, then ... well I suppose the same thing applies. Griping about the perceived shortfalls of languages you don't use because they don't meet your needs is precisely equivalent to complaining about the uselessness and failure of screwdrivers because you have to work too hard with them to remove a nail.

    On a slightly more snarky note, I'm guessing you don't often program in binary. If you're wanting optimization and pure performance, you can't beat it. It gives you the ULTIMATE in power and flexibility at the cost of just a wee bit of time. No need to screw around with compilers that might not always choose the most optimal code path. So why don't you do all your stuff with just 1's and 0's from now on?

    For two reasons: 1) Because that's completely fucking insane and 2) it's on the far side of an arbitrary line you've drawn in your head for a difficulty-to-performance tradeoff. There is no law in the Universe that guarantees your tool selection is the One True Way. If it were, nobody would be using anything but what you use.

    So come on everybody, let's all get over ourselves and understand that people invented all these languages for a reason - what was already available didn't meet their needs.


    • #62
      Originally posted by Squarepusher
      Java is a toy programming language and anybody who sticks to it and claims it can compete with C/C++ either doesn't have what it takes to program in C/C++ or they are just an inferior programmer. Period.

      As a programmer you are a bad joke if you 'prefer' your toy programming languages and the 'toy' managed environments they run in. Sorry but facts are facts.
      that's it. I'm done. You have completely lept off the deep end in unreasonable fanboy ranting.

      Let me guess: Scala and Clojure are also joke languages?

      James Gosling, Martin Odersky, Doug Lea, all these master, renown programmers have been strong proponents of Java. Google has much of their server side code in Java. Yahoo search and later Bing was written in Hadoop + Java. You think all these guys are bad jokes? Are those toy projects?

      BTW, I've been a C/C++ guru, a well respected expert, worked in purely C/C++ for over a decade, and worked on major C/C++ compilers. Languages are tools to do a job. C/C++ has it's use cases where it excels. Specifically, when you want a really low level tool, C/C++ is really the only major option. It also has design flaws and legacy baggage that other newer languages handle better. For games and general GUI apps it probably isn't the best fit.


      • #63
        Originally posted by Squarepusher
        Funny that you should be talking to a guy who has delivered way more in terms of 'cross-platform portability' than any of you on this forum.

        Seriously - come back to me when you can get modern codebases to compile correctly with a 2003-class MS compiler and when you are maintaining 10 to 12 different platforms with one codebase - and then multiply that by 20 projects.

        Oh yeah - all of this while getting the best performance possible on all of those 12 host systems - which you can pretty much forget if you are going down this Java claptrap path. Not to mention that most of these platforms don't even have a Java VM available.

        Seriously son - come back to me when you know what 'cross-platform' and 'portability' actually means. ProTip - it doesn't mean being locked into anyone's particular shitty VM nor does it mean targeting an awful language 'governed' by Oracle.
        Firstly sir, we are not related. I take your use of the word "son" to be a term of opprobrium, and I would thank you to show me the same level of respect that I show you.

        Secondly, you seem to have misunderstood my argument. I am not championing Java or any other language. It has its uses and I recognize that. I find it strange that you do not.

        You're going to cite Mojang as a 'posterboy' for Java game programming? Seriously?
        I'm citing Mojang as a counterfactual to your claim that game programmers universally turn their noses up at Java. Further, you completely missed the part where I said that end-users - the ones who pay for your software - don't care about your programming CV. But a posterboy for Java game programming? Sure. Why not? I know who Notch is and can recognize him on sight. I have no idea who you are or what you've actually done. I'd say that makes him a posterboy for what can be accomplished with Java.

        It's not the language you choose or "how it would've been done in the old days" before the Internet was really a thing. It's what you do with the tools you've got. You can rip Minecraft if you really want, but it's pathetic zealotry ... and I wouldn't be surprised to find a little jealousy has crept in there somewhere too. Is the game inefficient? Probably. But if I can run it on my shitty Kindle Fire, it can't be too demanding. And on top of all that - trumping all that - the game is fun and playable. That's what matters.

        But wait... are you claiming that we're just throwing power at the problem and hoping it goes away in a couple of hardware generations? I don't think you want to play that game either. Will RAGE run on a Windows 98 machine? Of course not. There's not even enough disk space available to install it. But if there were, would it run in a playable manner? Highly unlikely. So does that mean the code is inefficient and just icky, or that you tried to implement the code on woefully inept hardware and deserve what you get?

        In closing, I've been reading back over your posts, and I'm going to have to formally call you on your BS. I have no doubt you're the greatest programmer that you've ever met. But I'm sure there's nothing you do that I can't. Bjarne Stroustrup didn't write C++ and give it to you for your birthday you know. This probably hits you right in the pride, but you might want to face the fact that nobody cares about sensational claims of vague awesomeness backed by (as far as I can tell) nothing. And before you start questioning my programming ability, I'm not making any claims other than my job is solving hard problems and I think you're full of it.


        • #64
          Originally posted by Squarepusher
          Jealous of what? Fame? Money? A shitty engine that looks worse than a 1996 software-rendered game - ie. Quake? A game engine that tells you with a straight face that 4GB of RAM is 'not enough' or that chugs like hell unless you're running it on a Core i7?

          If your job is about 'solving hard problems', then surely you could have solved this little 'problem' for yourself -

          the 'Minecraft' you're running on your Kindle Fire is NOT, I repeat, NOT, a Java-based app. None of the 'mobile' versions of Minecraft are.

          Now you go and guess why that is, son?

          Your 'definition' of fun must be very different from mine. But then again, you are probably in your late teens/early twenties and are not of my generation.

          The 'indie games' you think are so high and mighty frankly for the most part consist of SNES game rejects that would have been laughed at by any SNES/Genesis gamer back in the day. (newsflash - those games looked the way they did due to technical restrictions and no, not due to inadequacy - indie 'devs' might want to take note). Another case of degeneration right there - the shitty 'indie games' that are held up as 'innovative' and 'great'. Ie. Jonathan Blow's tired 'Mario Bros with rewind' clone gets held up as a 'masterpiece' and the same for his soon-to-be 'Myst clone'.
          Okay, you're just being rude for the sake of doing it now. You either can't or won't attempt to understand what I'm saying to you, and you refuse to show me the least bit of respect. You're the mental midget who's out of touch with reality here, not me. You live in the "glory" of the past, and want all the kids to get off your lawn. But you're irrelevant.

          Hmm. You don't know anything about me, my tastes, or my preferences. But I admire how you don't let that stop you from forging ahead with baseless accusations. And as to my age? I think I should probably be calling you "son". But I don't do that because I'm not an ass. (You've lost all semblance of being deserving of respect at this point, yet I persist because I'm better than you.)

          So maintain your moldy code base and never touch anything other than C++. Let other stupid people code in those newfangled languages whilst you make those Gamecube ports. However, if you actually want to have a civil and useful discussion, I'm willing to give you another shot. If not, then that's great too. Just crawl off and die somewhere where the rest of us won't be distracted by the smell.

          Larian ^_^
          Last edited by Larian; 04-21-2013, 02:53 PM.


          • #65
            Originally posted by Squarepusher
            Says the guy who talks about others being 'rude' - while I so far have never resorted to one 'insult' or called for somebody to die.

            If you can't handle the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Swearing like mad and saying people should die shows you can't handle an argument with wit and tact. It is a sign of weakness and inadequacy on your part.

            You actually operate under the assumption that the business world has a place for all of the shitty 'toy languages' your mind can conjure up.

            Trust me - if you were counting your Java/C# eggs before they actually hatched, I'd feel very insecure about your position in the jobs market right now. Have a lot of fun with that because performance-focused coding will start becoming more and more a priority as we target ever-slower platforms (especially ones where runtime performance is governed by battery usage - it pays to be high performing').

            You're probably not a person I'd even want to talk to in the first place, so it isn't so much a case of 'willing to give you another shot' more that I frankly don't know who the hell you are and why I should even care about you and your argument. Notice that it is you engaging me in a conversation - I didn't ask you anything at all nor did I even ask you to start commenting (nor did you actually make a single point - not to mention you didn't even know Minecraft Pocket Edition on Kindle Fire is C++, not Java, which craps all over your own argument anyway). I'd have to say at this point that I really have zero interest in your opinion, so yeah, I'll brief you about the 'dying part' as soon as we get there - that might take another good 40 years though so I hope you can be as patient in this regard as you are of the garbage-collecting VMs you seem to like.

            I remember asking a question and politely asking you to show me a modicum of respect - which you refused to do. Then you proceeded to misunderstand and argue against things I never said. For clarification, what I said was all these languages have their place, and I was willing to continue this discussion if you could be civil - if not, you could crawl off and die. Since you defaulted to being butthurt, I assume civility is beyond you. It was, after all, your choice.

            As for having a discussion, you're not "discussing" anything. You're proselytizing and evangelizing all while pithily dismissing and ignoring points counter to your own. You're not looking for truth, you're claiming to have it. And like most religious nut cases, you don't seem to know your ass from third base. Just because you don't understand the point doesn't mean there wasn't one.

            So no, as much as I hate to say this, we're not really on the same level. You've failed the litmus test for intelligence all the while insulting the intellect of everybody else and being condescending to anyone who disagrees with you. I know this is the Internet, but damn.

            You can have the last word if you want. But in kind, I don't much care about what you think, either (since it can be summed up with "C++ is the only programming language and anybody who says differently is an idiot" as near as anyone here can tell.) I can't imagine why people would find that abrasive.

            May you live in interesting times.


            • #66
              Originally posted by BO$$ View Post

              And where did you get those i7 system requirments for Minecraft?
              Rectal mining as near as I can tell, BO$$. I've had it running in a playable manner on an AMD dual core with integrated graphics.


              • #67
                Wow, another bland news story descends into a flame war for no real reason. Does anyone know a Linux-focussed news site that isn't full of dickheads? I'd like to go there.


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Squarepusher
                  Oh, how surprising that you identify yourself as an 'entrepreneur' - certainly didn't see that coming from a mile away.....

                  Anybody calling themselves an 'entrepreneur' 99.99% of the time in software engineering translates into a scumbag piece of shit that doesn't

                  Then why the fuck don't you get off this site then? Your scumbag kind doesn't even seem to belong here. Imagine if the people behind the Linux kernel and/or Mesa shared your attitude - you wouldn't have anything to run your (closed source) piece of shit game engine on in the first place

                  But hey, I know plenty of FLOSS tards these days who talk just like you. You are a symptom of the cancer that is surrounding modern 'homegrown' development.

                  Must feel good, having sold out right?

                  Hey cockroach, THIS IS HOW HOMEBREW/OPEN SOURCE WORKS - this is HOW WE ROLL since the '80s and '70s - you provide your SHIT FOR FREE and you provide your SOURCE. This is how this motherfucking community used to work before piece of shit maggots like you found out there was a way to 'profit' from shitty homegrown code on dipshit App Stores. Michael Abrash started talking elaborately about the tech behind Quake 1's source code the VERY SAME YEAR the game was published in the spirit of 'INFORMATION SHOULD BE OPEN' - something a disgusting cockroach llike you don't even believe in. And what the motherfuck do you have to offer in your dipshit 'game engine' that a guy like Abrash couldn't? Exactly jack shit all that is what, Junior.

                  You, your fucking 'Valley attitude', your merry band of failure 'startup entrepreneurs' and the companies that 'enable you' (Google/Apple) can all go fuck off and die as far as I am concerned. Is that plain enough for you bubba?

                  Oh, but your shitty 'game engine 101' is, right? (the source which we can't even look into because you are a shit-faced wannabe 'entrepreneur' that thinks he is going to 'make it big' when he never will).


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Squarepusher
                    scumbag piece of shit jack shit douchyness morons failures loudmouth dipshits and shit dipshit cockroach parasite damn motherfucking cockroach parasite why the fuck scumbag kind piece of shit tards cancer cockroach SHIT motherfucking piece of shit maggots shitty dipshit cockroach motherfuck dipshit jack shit fucking failure fuck off and die shitty shit-faced piece of garbage garbage spineless, gutless nerds scumbag maggot larvae kind crap cancer disgusting bottom-feeding cockroach SHOVE IT right up your fat hillbilly ass.
                    I think you should take a deep breadth.


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
                      I think this is easily the sanest, most logical post that i have ever seen coming out of you.

                      It's a compliment, by the way.