Is Valve's Steam Client Bad & Damaging For Linux?

[ninez]

Salaried employees must generally sign an NDA, which makes total sense. Apps store marketplaces like Apple and Google make you agree to terms, but the terms themselves are completely public and open to public scrutiny. If you want to make and sell software for Mac/Windows/Linux, you don't have to sign anything, you can just do it.

You ignored what i said - you don't actually know what the NDA covers, nor why Valve has them - your opinions are nothing but speculation, and imho don't have any basis in reality. If you think certain employees working for Apple and/or Google haven't had to sign NDAs in some cases, you are also probably quite wrong...

I don't think NDA's are normal for a broad marketplace conduit like Steam aims to be.

You may not think so, but my feeling is - this is probably often the scenario, across many different markets.

It makes sense to welcome more apps/games to Linux even we personally don't like them. Most other apps, don't have this platform wide critical mass effect. Steam however does. I suspect Steam take a very large cut of revenue from Windows gaming today and I don't believe that is reasonable.

Why not? I think this is just a case of the free-market working correctly. People value Valve's service, they pay for it, it dominates ~ good for them. and regardless, i don't see this bad for desktop linux, at all. - since it brings more people into the fold... underlying stuff - such as drivers, libs, etc - see improvement, etc. To me it's a big win, even if i am not likely to make use of Steam.

[DanLamb]

You ignored what i said - you don't actually know what the NDA covers, nor why Valve has them - your opinions are nothing but speculation, and imho don't have any basis in reality. If you think certain employees working for Apple and/or Google haven't had to sign NDAs in some cases, you are also probably quite wrong...

I have speculated on the terms of the hidden contracts. I have also very clearly labeled this as speculation and criticized the very fact that we have to speculate and we can't just see the terms.

Why would you say "If you think certain employees working for Apple and/or Google haven't had to sign NDAs in some cases, you are also probably quite wrong.."? I just wrote this:

Salaried employees must generally sign an NDA, which makes total sense

You aren't reading anything that I am writing.

Why not? I think this is just a case of the free-market working correctly. People value Valve's service, they pay for it, it dominates ~ good for them.

If Steam was competing purely on product merit, I would agree. Steam is not winning on technical prowess, but on political clout. Steam has a massive advantage with a very passionate, and extremely vocal minority fan base generating this overwhelming push towards Steam. This crowd generally doesn't even know the secret terms of the Steam contracts and this push isn't merit based.

I fell like I've written this point many many times in many different ways and people such as you are just not reading or even acknowledging this point.

[jayrulez]

I have speculated on the terms of the hidden contracts. I have also very clearly labeled this as speculation and criticized the very fact that we have to speculate and we can't just see the terms.

Why would you say "If you think certain employees working for Apple and/or Google haven't had to sign NDAs in some cases, you are also probably quite wrong.."? I just wrote this:



You aren't reading anything that I am writing.



If Steam was competing purely on product merit, I would agree. Steam is not winning on technical prowess, but on political clout. Steam has a massive advantage with a very passionate, and extremely vocal minority fan base generating this overwhelming push towards Steam. This crowd generally doesn't even know the secret terms of the Steam contracts and this push isn't merit based.

I fell like I've written this point many many times in many different ways and people such as you are just not reading or even acknowledging this point.

Do you want people to acknowledge or support your claims? Substantiate them rather than just presenting conjecture and speculation.

____________
Based on your posts, I believe you are being paid by Valve's competitors prevent support for their platform. This is just speculation. True? No one but you knows. Your posts could be treated the same way.

Note: I do not really believe that you are being paid to do this.

[ninez]

I have speculated on the terms of the hidden contracts. I have also very clearly labeled this as speculation and criticized the very fact that we have to speculate and we can't just see the terms.

This seems utterly pointless. You're essentially just making up sh*t, then you are critical of your own fabricated claims, labelling them as _possibly_ being Valve's position...

when in reality, it is nothing more than non-sense. (since it has no basis in reality).

Why would you say "If you think certain employees working for Apple and/or Google haven't had to sign NDAs in some cases, you are also probably quite wrong.."? I just wrote this:

You aren't reading anything that I am writing.

I can read just fine. You don't get to redefine where NDAs are, or are not acceptable in business. I've had to sign an NDA before from a company whom i was not employed by, this isn't all that uncommon. By your reasoning, NDAs in this case are unacceptable since i am not on receiving a salary from that company ~ but that is a bunch of BS, straight up. - It was a complete necessity, in order to be able to work with that company, since myslef and others had access / knowledge about things that had to be safe-guarded/protected.

I've read a bunch of your posts, and i get the impression that you don't have a whole lot of experience with NDAs, or working in this type of situation.

You seem to be under the false impression of entitlement to know the inner working of Valve and their products, which you are not. Their employees (at various levels) are entitled (more likely a requirement / prerequisite) in order to do the job in order to be able to work @ Valve. - You're not an employee, nor a 3rd party that is working directly with them, get over it. :\

If Steam was competing purely on product merit, I would agree. Steam is not winning on technical prowess, but on political clout. Steam has a massive advantage with a very passionate, and extremely vocal minority fan base generating this overwhelming push towards Steam. This crowd generally doesn't even know the secret terms of the Steam contracts and this push isn't merit based.

that group is not entitled to know the inner working of XYZ's companies products whom they use, necessarily. If you feel that Steam is not winning on technical prowess, fine - then since you have such heavy criticism, why don't you do better - since clearly you think you can / know how to... or is this just a case of being "an arm-chair cynic"?? (seems to me to be very likely, you are the latter).

Part of any successful company is going to involve, so called "political clout", regardless. Successful companies don't run solely on 'technical merit' - business does not work that way.

I fell like I've written this point many many times in many different ways and people such as you are just not reading or even acknowledging this point.

that's probably because your point isn't quite "as heavy" as you think it is.... You seem idealistic and naive without any actual exposure, inside of a company where NDAs are typically used. Yet, you've defined where/how/why/when NDAs should be used, where/how/why/when they shouldn't be - but their are gapping holes in your logic vs. "reality" in business.

I just don't think you have a valid argument here. I acknowledge what you are saying ~ i just think your complaint is invalid.

[ninez]

Do you want people to acknowledge or support your claims? Substantiate them rather than just presenting conjecture and speculation.

____________
Based on your posts, I believe you are being paid by Valve's competitors prevent support for their platform. This is just speculation. True? No one but you knows. Your posts could be treated the same way.

Note: I do not really believe that you are being paid to do this.

+1

exactly, utterly pointless to be setting up such speculation - as if it has any consequence or truth without anything to back it up.

it's really silly and i don't get how Dan doesn't seem to get this.

[Kivada]

And so the nuts that think that OSS devs are infallible deities come out again. Just because someone isn't a coder or a 3D modeler or graphics artist doesn't mean they can't critique your work, even if you have done it for free.

Oh right, so there are like ten fps/arena shooters? And that is what you call majority? Stop trolling dude!

Did it ever come to your mind, that this games are there because their creators and contributors enjoy playing them? And that they might see fancy artwork and story as secondary?

You don't like them? Don't fscking play them. But shitting on foss games in general just because they don't serve your taste is just sad. At the very least show some respect to the work of others, that they are sharing with you for free btw.

Because there aren't a dozen clones of VDrift, Flight Gear or any of the OSS games that are trying to do something different. Like so many distros and forks, they are a massive waste of resources that, if they where consolidated into a single project could actually produce something good instead of a dozen things that are below mediocre.

If you clearly know what would be more interesting, why aren't you:
a) making it, or
b) writing it out explicitly and then showing your doc around

I have posted things they could do to vastly improve their games dozens of times, all I ever hear from the devs is that this or that can't be done for lack of resources, so when you inquire how they could get more resources they seem to be 100% dumbfounded. Many of us are more then willing to pay good money for a Linux game that is fun to play, too bad that there are exceedingly few that meet that criteria where they could actually get away with charging.

[DanLamb]

This seems utterly pointless. You're essentially just making up sh*t, then you are critical of your own fabricated claims, labelling them as _possibly_ being Valve's position... when in reality, it is nothing more than non-sense. (since it has no basis in reality).

You may make a valid argument that my speculation of the hidden Steam terms are inaccurate, but my criticism of the secretive nature of the contracts themselves is in no way speculative at all.

You don't get to redefine where NDAs are, or are not acceptable in business. I've had to sign an NDA before from a company whom i was not employed by, this isn't all that uncommon. By your reasoning, NDAs in this case are unacceptable since i am not on receiving a salary from that company ~ but that is a bunch of BS, straight up. - It was a complete necessity,

I never tried to redefine what NDAs are nor did I say that NDAs are unacceptable when you are not receiving a salary.

I don't want to go off on tangents and debate fair/unfair right/wrong in other unrelated scenarios.

My claim is that it is not in the interests of the Linux community to have the terms of gaming marketplace be kept secret and under the control of one private company.

You seem to be under the false impression of entitlement to know the inner working of Valve and their products, which you are not.

I don't think I have some legal right that the inner workings of Valve's contracts or technologies, but I do feel entitled to express that Steam is bad for the Linux community with justifications based on reason.

Part of any successful company is going to involve, so called "political clout", regardless. Successful companies don't run solely on 'technical merit' - business does not work that way.

I completely agree. My purpose is making the case that the community and this website in particular should put it's political voice behind a different solution to game distribution than Steam for the reasons I have discussed.

[ninez]

You may make a valid argument that my speculation of the hidden Steam terms are inaccurate, but my criticism of the secretive nature of the contracts themselves is in no way speculative at all.

Your speculations and reasoning behind them - unfortunately, makes it very hard to take anything that you say seriously. Again, i don't think you seem to understand some pretty basic stuff about NDAs.

I never tried to redefine what NDAs are nor did I say that NDAs are unacceptable when you are not receiving a salary.

I don't want to go off on tangents and debate fair/unfair right/wrong in other unrelated scenarios.

Except for that fact that you did - you drew a line when you on the one hand, accepting that employees under salary being justified. And my point still stands, i don't think you have any experience working in an environment where NDAs are common place. You instead just draw your own fact-less conclusions. And you are trying to press an issue of 'right or wrong' / morality within their business - and thus, you do have an unfounded sense of entitlement. ie: you think Valve owes you something, which they do not.

My claim is that it is not in the interests of the Linux community to have the terms of gaming marketplace be kept secret and under the control of one private company.

No one is blocking XYZ gaming company from coming to Linux, nor forcing them to be under the Valve Steam umbrella... and again You are not entitled to know Valve's business plans with their partners.

I don't think I have some legal right that the inner workings of Valve's contracts or technologies, but I do feel entitled to express that Steam is bad for the Linux community with justifications based on reason.

except that your justifications are actually just rationalizations ~ which you've already admitted, by admitting most of it is nothing more than speculation (bordering on plain FUD! imho). I don't see your comments based on 'reason', they are based on speculation, nothing more. You may feel entitled to voice your opinion ~ but that doesn't make it true / valid ... especially, when you are relying on nothing more than your own imagination.

I completely agree. My purpose is making the case that the community and this website in particular should put it's political voice behind a different solution to game distribution than Steam for the reasons I have discussed.

Like i said, Dan - if you think you can do better - no one is stopping you.... but i guess i should also point out the obvious ~ not everyone agrees with you, your points of view, nor do you represent (as a whole) the community (or more likely many communities) whom's interests you seem to think your opinions embody.

[DanLamb]

No one is blocking XYZ gaming company from coming to Linux, nor forcing them to be under the Valve Steam umbrella... and again You are not entitled to know Valve's business plans with their partners.

No one is forcing people to use Steam, but Phoronix and others are advocating that we do. I am suggesting that we advocate for an alternative. I've said this many times.

[ninez]

No one is forcing people to use Steam, but Phoronix and others are advocating that we do. I am suggesting that we advocate for an alternative. I've said this many times.

So Phoronix covering Valve Steam = Phoronix advocating and/or telling me that i should be using Steam?

One word: bullsh*t.

Phoronix covers lots of stuff, even just linux gaming-related. I don't think you should be presenting all of Phoronix' coverage as advocating and/or trying to convince the reader to use XYZ software. I really don't see that being the case. Michael tends to cover stuff that he, himself is interested in and/or coverage on things he thinks his readers will be interested in, from my perspective.

You can advocate anything you like - go right ahead. But there is no 'we' here. It's pretty obvious, you have your own agenda and opinion on this stuff, which is totally fine ~ but don't make the mistake/assumption of thinking there is a (singular) community who's opinions you represent, because you certainly don't encompass my views and i doubt you have dazzled the hearts and minds of many others either.

now, how about enlightening us all to your 'alternative' that is 'the way to go' over Valve Steam?