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John Carmack Pushes Wine For Linux Gaming

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  • johnc
    replied
    Originally posted by bvanevery View Post
    I've read it. Nothing about that book changes anything I just said. He can make his own business decisions, but I see no reason to agree with, praise, or reward him for saying Linux is a PITA. I'm of the mind that the world doesn't need Windows anymore. It's time. Not that Windows will go away soon, but it's time for game developers to chart their own destiny and not worry about what Microsoft or anyone in their sphere of influence thinks.
    He didn't say Linux is a PITA (though it is), he just said that there's no business case that can be made for porting and supporting a game on Linux. And I think for most games this is probably true.

    For Linux gaming to receive equal respect it would require this Steam Box to be very successful.

    Leave a comment:


  • bvanevery
    replied
    Originally posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
    Still, as a side note, has anyone else here read David Kushner's excellent book Masters of Doom? I think that should be required reading for anyone before they attempt to make a character assassination of either Carmack or Romero.
    I've read it. Nothing about that book changes anything I just said. He can make his own business decisions, but I see no reason to agree with, praise, or reward him for saying Linux is a PITA. I'm of the mind that the world doesn't need Windows anymore. It's time. Not that Windows will go away soon, but it's time for game developers to chart their own destiny and not worry about what Microsoft or anyone in their sphere of influence thinks.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hamish Wilson
    replied
    Originally posted by bvanevery View Post
    At your suggestion, I started to. I could not make it past the 1st sentence. "I wish Linux well, but the reality is that it barely makes it into my top ten priorities (Burn the heretic!);" Screw this. If Linux is not a priority for his business model, that's fine, it's his business and his choice. But indie Linux developers will pick up the slack from big game companies that don't want to be bothered. Their loss, our gain. I don't want to be bothered with Windows *anything* anymore, it has taken me something like 15 years to finally dump Microsoft for good. I believe in control of one's destiny, and that doesn't happen when one is small and dancing to Microsoft's tune. Carmack is big and established so he doesn't have to care, he's already got money to do whatever he likes.
    And I do not disagree with you, for the most part. I just think some of the language and allegations being thrown about in this thread are unfair.

    Still, as a side note, has anyone else here read David Kushner's excellent book Masters of Doom? I think that should be required reading for anyone before they attempt to make a character assassination of either Carmack or Romero.

    Leave a comment:


  • bvanevery
    replied
    Originally posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
    I think people need to tone down some of the hate. He is not being as unreasonable as some people here are making out. Read his reddit post:
    http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/commen...enough/c89sfto
    At your suggestion, I started to. I could not make it past the 1st sentence. "I wish Linux well, but the reality is that it barely makes it into my top ten priorities (Burn the heretic!);" Screw this. If Linux is not a priority for his business model, that's fine, it's his business and his choice. But indie Linux developers will pick up the slack from big game companies that don't want to be bothered. Their loss, our gain. I don't want to be bothered with Windows *anything* anymore, it has taken me something like 15 years to finally dump Microsoft for good. I believe in control of one's destiny, and that doesn't happen when one is small and dancing to Microsoft's tune. Carmack is big and established so he doesn't have to care, he's already got money to do whatever he likes.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hamish Wilson
    replied
    Originally posted by johnc View Post
    This open GPU obsession makes my head spin. Having something that's capable of at least bringing up a display is nice, but otherwise 99.99% of all computer users use closed-sourced video drivers and it's worked for decades and frankly people just don't care.
    I suggest you re-read your statement as it is internally inconsistent, or are you saying we are not people now?

    Leave a comment:


  • Hamish Wilson
    replied
    I think people need to tone down some of the hate. He is not being as unreasonable as some people here are making out. Read his reddit post:
    http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/commen...enough/c89sfto

    That is not to say that I agree with his WINE comments, but I think some of the bile here is uncalled for. Especially with this comment here:
    However, I don?t think that a good business case can be made for officially supporting Linux for mainstream games today, and Zenimax doesn?t have any policy of ?unofficial binaries? like Id used to have. I have argued for their value (mostly in the context of experimental Windows features, but Linux would also benefit), but my forceful internal pushes have been for the continuation of Id Software?s open source code releases, which I feel have broader benefits than unsupported Linux binaries.
    And he is actually exactly right about the fact that the source code releases are more important - I would rather have access to a games source code be made available than a single port to a single platform any day. Especially since in doing so it decouples the games from Steamworks or any other potential forms of DRM. I am still waiting for the day I can play Rage natively on my machine without the Steamworks requirement, like what is possible with Doom3: BFG already. This idea I support fully

    I do not support the idea of WINE as a primarily means for gaming however. I do use it and recognize it's value, but I am also well aware it's shortfalls. The sound is not working for me at the moment, and for the longest time doing anything with it (like launching FirstClass so I could send off my school assignments) would bork my sound server (it has now thankfully settled down somewhat and simply does not work without borking anything else). And there are so many other technical and practical reasons why his proposal is a bad idea, from increased overheard, worse support, and of course the message it sends out.

    But just because we disagree with him does not mean he should be singled out for the abuse shown in this thread. Please, comment responsibly.
    Last edited by Hamish Wilson; 02-05-2013, 07:36 PM.

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  • johnc
    replied
    Originally posted by artivision View Post
    Intel is ok. AMD gives only half the thing wile Nvidia let as guess from some PDFs. The thing with AMD is that we can't target their hardware efficiently, correctly, and we are missing capabilities (buffer management, instructions and others). With AMD its like they give you an AVX CPU and a GCC patch with SSSE3 target and optimization libraries.
    It's all that proprietary IP that makes it difficult to just give out the code.

    Ok Intel is fully open source (on Linux) but I haven't heard even half-decent things about Intel GPU drivers, even on Windows. And the non-proprietary versions on Linux don't even match Windows performance if I recall Michael's benchmarks.

    This open GPU obsession makes my head spin. Having something that's capable of at least bringing up a display is nice, but otherwise 99.99% of all computer users use closed-sourced video drivers and it's worked for decades and frankly people just don't care. Functionality, performance and making things work as smooth as possible is going to win over the most consumers. Just an FYI for businesses interested in making money.

    Leave a comment:


  • bridgman
    replied
    Originally posted by artivision View Post
    AMD gives only half the thing wile Nvidia let as guess from some PDFs. The thing with AMD is that we can't target their hardware efficiently, correctly, and we are missing capabilities (buffer management, instructions and others). With AMD its like they give you an AVX CPU and a GCC patch with SSSE3 target and optimization libraries.
    I don't really understand what you are saying here. What do you mean by buffer management, and what instructions are you talking about ? The instructions covered by the ISA docs (Instruction Set Architecture) are the same as we use internally.
    Last edited by bridgman; 02-05-2013, 06:44 PM.

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  • artivision
    replied
    Originally posted by bridgman View Post
    Sounds really dramatic, but it's not actually *true* or anything, at least not for Intel or AMD.

    Intel is ok. AMD gives only half the thing wile Nvidia let as guess from some PDFs. The thing with AMD is that we can't target their hardware efficiently, correctly, and we are missing capabilities (buffer management, instructions and others). With AMD its like they give you an AVX CPU and a GCC patch with SSSE3 target and optimization libraries.

    Leave a comment:


  • bridgman
    replied
    Originally posted by artivision View Post
    The bad thing is that wile with a new CPU they give as those libraries(BDver for example) for GCC, for a GPU they don't give the analogous MESA parts. That is happening because they don't want MESA to grow, because then other companies will come and break their monopoly (software is half the GPU).
    Sounds really dramatic, but it's not actually *true* or anything, at least not for Intel or AMD.

    Leave a comment:

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