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id Software: Linux Hasn't Produced Positive Results

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  • ownagefool
    replied
    Originally posted by Scali View Post
    Games need OpenGL, OpenGL needs display driver and Xorg, Xorg and display driver need kernel.
    Thats an argument that OpenGL should be a well defined standard that the games should code against then, don't you agree?

    Originally posted by yogi_berra
    Try playing the loki port of Tribes 2 (or any of their other games) in a modern distribution and see for yourself.
    I don't own a key, so I won't bother, but I'll assume for arguments sake that the game doesn't work. That isn't an argument against the kernel instability, but that libraries inbetween Linux and the game are at fault, or that the game itself was poorly ported. Given that I was playing ut99 last year on ubuntu, I'd hazard a guess that this is a mostly solved problem. If not, I would imagine one of the pieices of work in the future, will be an open source compatibility layer to solve any such issues.


    P.S. I don't imagine that the NT kernel devs stop working on their kernel just because Windows is sitting on what is basically an LTS version. Nobody says you need to install a new kernel every few weeks.
    Last edited by ownagefool; 15 August 2012, 01:22 PM.

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  • yogi_berra
    replied
    Originally posted by Kano View Post
    And what has your app to do with xorg or the kernel?
    Try playing the loki port of Tribes 2 (or any of their other games) in a modern distribution and see for yourself.

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  • Scali
    replied
    Originally posted by Kano View Post
    And what has your app to do with xorg or the kernel?
    Games need OpenGL, OpenGL needs display driver and Xorg, Xorg and display driver need kernel.

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  • Scali
    replied
    Originally posted by 0xBADCODE View Post
    And internal kernel api is none of your business anyway.
    It is, indirectly. Namely, Valve depends on nVidia's binary drivers. These drivers depend on the kernel API, and they have a long history of new kernels breaking existing drivers, requiring updates from nVidia.
    New kernel means no nVidia drivers, means no Valve games.

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  • Scali
    replied
    Originally posted by gamerk2 View Post
    My entire point is those said updates SHOULDN'T be causing programs to stop working in the first place.
    Yup, I fully agree. But we know from experience that this is certainly not the case, and I don't see that changing anytime soon (these are independent projects, who don't care at all for Valve and its applications), so I assume there will still be breaking changes in the future. So I wonder how Valve/Ubuntu will deal with that.

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  • Scali
    replied
    Originally posted by 0xBADCODE View Post
    [*] First, they're co-operate with AMD, Intel and Nvidia to improve things
    Problem is, Linus Torvalds doesn't want to cooperate with nVidia to improve things (and probably not AMD either).
    So by extension, Torvalds does not want to cooperate with Valve either (since Valve is currently targeting nVidia's binary drivers, all the information they published on performance and such was based on these drivers, which literally have gotten 'the finger' from Torvalds).

    rather than just blame them as id guys did. This works far better.

    Originally posted by 0xBADCODE View Post
    [*] Then, Valve runs whole store, not just one game.
    If Valve ran the linux distribution as well, and Xorg, Qt, and various other projects crucial to proper functioning of their software, I would have a lot more confidence in the whole endeavour. Currently there are MANY captains on the ship, and not all of them have any vested interest in Valve's software running.

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  • Scali
    replied
    Originally posted by entropy View Post
    Valve being naive?
    You must be joking.
    Well, they don't have any experience in maintaining released applications on linux.

    Originally posted by entropy View Post
    They surely know about the risks.
    They *think* they know about the risks, and decided to go for it anyway. We'll have to evaluale that decision again in a few years.
    Last edited by Scali; 15 August 2012, 12:39 PM.

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  • Kano
    replied
    And what has your app to do with xorg or the kernel?

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  • gamerk2
    replied
    Originally posted by Scali View Post
    Of course, with a bit of luck, the Ubuntu people are smart enough to avoid any software updates that would break Steam games... Then again, that might mean that they get stuck with older versions of Xorg, Qt and whatnot.
    My entire point is those said updates SHOULDN'T be causing programs to stop working in the first place.

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  • 0xBADCODE
    replied
    Originally posted by gamerk2 View Post
    I'm speaking as a developer. I'm not going to re-design my application two years after I release it because some Linux developer decided to junk a bunch of the API's I used for the latest kernel revision. Its that mindset that's caused Linux to more or less be ignored by the marketplace.

    Linux needs a stable API. Period. Now, feel free to change how that API is implemented as needed, but constantly junking interfaces is the quickest way to get people to ditch development for your OS.
    As a developer you have to deal with user mode API via various libraries like libc, etc. This is fairly stable. And internal kernel api is none of your business anyway. If you care about kernel api, you're kernel developer and know the drill. And I can't remember many kernel dev's crying about APIs. The most loud crybabies are usually those who never wrote single kernel mode driver at all.

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