id Software: Linux Hasn't Produced Positive Results

[Scali]

While I think you meant to say "is not because of some kind of inherently superior OS design.", I would like to point out a couple things.

Well, that's one way to put it... I was thinking more along the lines of "inherent to certain aspects of the OS design" or "inherent to the design of the OS"...
But something like that yes.

It's really not fair to compare a Mac to a win/nix PC

Well, I don't mind people pointing out the differences, and how they may or may not affect the end-user.
But I object to people falsely attributing something to OS design when clearly the OS can function properly on a given subset of the available hardware.
The cause is with drivers or applications stealing too much CPU time.

I've come across this many times with those monitoring utilities that come with most motherboards. Generally they will update once or twice per second, reading out voltages, frequencies and whatnot. Problem is, I found many of these utilities to hog the system during that time. If you were to play a game, even a simple game such as Portal 2, you'd see it stutter at that exact interval. Just close off the monitor utility, and it's smooth as butter.
Another offender I have found was the HD dock utility that comes with VIA onboard HD audio. If you leave it running in the tray, you will also see this 'spiky' behaviour in games and such (on Vista/Win7 at least, XP has an older version of the tray utility which does not suffer from this problem).
Close the utility, and the problem is gone (the audio device itself works fine).
Now, many other audio devices have similar utilities that don't suffer from this issue, so clearly it is not some kind of deficiency in Windows.

And to get back to the Mac... well, what choice of motherboards/onboard audio and utilities do you have there? Exactly...

[russofris]

The point I'm making is that the fact that OS X users experience less of these problems is not because of some kind of inherent OS design.

While I think you meant to say "is not because of some kind of inherently superior OS design.", I would like to point out a couple things.

OSX only needs to support Mac hardware. Rather than supporting the entire Nvidia/AMD family of products Apple only needs to support the four chips that ship in the Mac in static configurations. With a dozen output/fan/memory configurations per member chip, it is no mystery why the vendors and OS developers have issues.

It's really not fair to compare a Mac to a win/nix PC, in the same way that it is not fair to compare an Xbox360 to a PC. They're completely different animals, despite the similarities.

While Intel and AMD have put a lot of momentum behind Linux recently, I fear that it will all be in vain if we do not begin working on improvements to the DE. Canonical releases one of the most highly consumed linux based distributions at the moment, and it is obvious from the state of the Unity desktop that they just don't get it. I feel like Maddox every time I use Unity.

F

[Scali]

The fact is, you have been misrepresenting almost everything i say.

More like you're tripping over your own arguments.

Thing is, your 'arguments' are mostly insults, laced with some poorly constructed 'arguments' (like the one about the latency between speaker and ear... oh yea, like speakers and ears are not involved when you're using digital processing, right?... That part is a constant and is obviously not part of the equation here).
You post links to articles that don't even support your own statements... And you wonder why I stopped bothering to respond to your 'arguments'...

[ninez]

You know, if most of your posts weren't pathetic insults, some people might actually bother to read what you're saying, and may even take you seriously.

Nice cop-out. The fact is, you have been misrepresenting almost everything i say. You have been very deceptive, fallacious, making erroneous claims and are unwilling to back up them up...and it's not like you haven't been given many opportunities. Many of your ideas are ridiculous and you are ridiculous - thus are deserving of ridicule by definition.

You keep coming back to the insults thing, as a tactic of avoidance - it's very transparent, since you tend to reply with this type of comment, right after i have shown various claims that you made were demonstrably false. You have insulted me many many times, so I am not buying what you are selling. it is nothing more than an excuse to absolve yourself of any responsibility and is nothing more than a cop-out and the kind of tactic i would usually associate with either someone who is smart, but very deceptive ~ or someone whom is a complete ninnyhammer... My insults (contrary to your belief) do not invalidate my positions that have been correct ~ even if you don't like my language or me personally.

But oh well, I've added you to my ignore list.

[Scali]

You were the one who originally brought up windows, and you have continued discussing it at great length.

I merely mentioned Windows as one of a number of platforms that have a stable binary interface. I wanted to focus more on Android, but people kept trying to corner me into discussing Windows.

But in the two cases I quotes, they had the exact same problem, i.e. third-party developers not following the correct practices, leading to applications not working properly.

Nope, it is not the same problem.
You see, drivers are third-party code. They are not part of Windows itself.
The linux kernel and Xorg are crucial parts of a linux distribution (at least one aimed at gaming, which is the topic here, ID/Valve and such).
In Windows, problems are caused by *some* drivers for *some* hardware.
In linux, the problems are caused just because you update parts of the OS itself, regardless of what hardware and software you want to use.
So it is a very different issue. Linux periodically breaks both nVidia's and AMD's drivers, forcing nVidia and AMD to release new drivers.

When Mac Os X has this problem less in the exact same area than windows, you intentionally downplay the issue ("it's just that it is more rare on OS X")

I'm just being realistic. There's a whole lot more hardware available for Windows than for OS X, and a lot of it is vague bargain-basement stuff with poorly designed hardware (eg relying on the CPU to perform various tasks that would otherwise be performed by dedicated hardware, very common on network/wifi cards, and in the past the infamous winmodems) and lousy drivers to boot.

The point I'm making is that the fact that OS X users experience less of these problems is not because of some kind of inherent OS design. Because it isn't. Just like how less malware is not exactly a result of Apple's superior security design and patch-policy... Quite the contrary, as discussed here: http://allthatiswrong.wordpress.com/...ibly-insecure/
Yes, it is safer, no it is not more secure by design.
Like how the same car is more likely to get stolen in one area than another. Same car, same security, different environment.

[TheBlackCat]

Firstly, I was talking about Android vs linux, other people prefer to focus on Windows instead.

You were the one who originally brought up windows, and you have continued discussing it at great length.

Secondly, the fact that no system is perfect does in no way imply that all of them are just as bad in every single way.
Double standard? Not quite.

But in the two cases I quotes, they had the exact same problem, i.e. third-party developers not following the correct practices, leading to applications not working properly. When this happens with Windows, you blame the third-party developers. When it happens with Linux, you blame Linux as a platform. When Mac Os X has this problem less in the exact same area than windows, you intentionally downplay the issue ("it's just that it is more rare on OS X"), yet when it is a difference between Linux and Windows, you blow the difference into a huge, insurmountable deal-killer. So yes, it most certainly is a double standard.

[Scali]

So let me see if I understand correctly: because we don't live in a perfect world, neither Linux nor Windows can be counted on to behave exactly as we expect. So the conclusion from this is that Windows is great and Linux sucks? Double standard much?

Wow, there's a gem of selective reading if there ever was one!
Firstly, I was talking about Android vs linux, other people prefer to focus on Windows instead. I don't think anyone actually said "Windows is great" or anything to that extent. There have been various attempts of putting such words into other people's mouths though.
Secondly, the fact that no system is perfect does in no way imply that all of them are just as bad in every single way.
Double standard? Not quite.

[TheBlackCat]

Well, there's the catch: it's not being done correctly. See gamerk2's remark.

Yes, in a perfect world, everyone does exactly what Microsoft prescribes, and all hardware and drivers are perfect and bug-free.
But the world is not perfect, so the moment you allow third parties to sell hardware, write drivers or applications, you open up your platform to potential issues of resource hogging and whatnot.

So let me see if I understand correctly: because we don't live in a perfect world, neither Linux nor Windows can be counted on to behave exactly as we expect. So the conclusion from this is that Windows is great and Linux sucks? Double standard much?

[Scali]

<1% of people are arrogant immature fanboys unable to listen to outsider's opinion.

Or even insiders.
I would say nVidia is very much an insider, having the longest and most successful history of supporting linux. But does Linus Torvalds listen? Nope.
Or Ingo Molnar, a linux kernel developer and Red Hat employee: https://plus.google.com/109922199462...ts/HgdeFDfRzNe

I myself don't feel like an insider, since I want to distance myself from people like Linus Torvalds and the linux community in general.
However, I *do* support the platform. I maintain various open source projects, which have full linux support (among other OSes, such as OS X and FreeBSD). So I am an 'insider' in the sense that I develop for linux (both FOSS and closed-source). Then again, I license my open source stuff under the BSD license, which again is probably not 'good enough'.

[ChrisXY]

Is THIS Linux user base?

A tiny, tiny part of it.

Then it's good that Linux has <1% on workstations:

You know, there are millions of PCs with linux on it.

<1% of people are arrogant immature fanboys unable to listen to outsider's opinion.

How many people you don't like have you seen here in the phoronix forums? A dozen? Out of how many? Millions of users?

I used to be a Linux advocate. But seeing the 'general population' in this thread makes me feel less and less pro-FOSS.

I'm considering invoking Godwin's law...