id Software: Linux Hasn't Produced Positive Results

[Scali]

I'm speaking as a developer. I'm not going to re-design my application two years after I release it because some Linux developer decided to junk a bunch of the API's I used for the latest kernel revision. Its that mindset that's caused Linux to more or less be ignored by the marketplace.

Linux needs a stable API. Period. Now, feel free to change how that API is implemented as needed, but constantly junking interfaces is the quickest way to get people to ditch development for your OS.

It will be interesting to see what will happen with Steam.
Valve seems all pro-linux so far, but that is probably a combination of naivety and the fact that they are launching a militant anti-Windows 8 campaign.
What will happen if in 1-2 years, games stop working on newer versions of Ubuntu? Games that people paid money for to play...

Of course, with a bit of luck, the Ubuntu people are smart enough to avoid any software updates that would break Steam games... Then again, that might mean that they get stuck with older versions of Xorg, Qt and whatnot.

At this point it looks like a house of cards that is going to fall apart horribly in a few years time. I wonder what Valve will say then. Would be great fun to see them backpeddling to Windows 8 (since Windows 7 would no longer be sold by that time). More epic than the end-scroller in Triton's Crystal Dream

[entropy]

It will be interesting to see what will happen with Steam.
Valve seems all pro-linux so far, but that is probably a combination of naivety and the fact that they are launching a militant anti-Windows 8 campaign.

Valve being naive?
You must be joking.

Considering the excellent staff they got,
it's way more naive to call them naive.
They surely know about the risks.

[Kano]

@gamerk2

Your point is completely wrong as long as you write apps for the USERSPACE. The userspace did not break, system level tools needed to be adjusted from kernel 2.4 to 2.6 series and some small changes have been needed for the newer 3.x naming scheme. But a standard userspace tool NEVER broke because of those changes. Your Linux API does only matter for kernel drivers - if you are really able to write those then you can follow upstream or best push your drivers into the mainline kernel. Outside tree drivers are always stupid to maintain. I mainly use 3 outside tree drivers: virtualbox (they are usually fast enough to keep up with mainline), nvidia (also pretty fast), fglrx (those devs are too often on holiday so you have to search for patches on your own). The other part that often changes is Xorg, that can break of course only binary 3d drivers. If you don't work for nvidia or amd all you can do is wait till an updated driver is there. nvidia is usually fast enough to adopt xorg changes, i did not read anything about xserver 1.13 and fglrx recently. So what do you have to care when you write binary userspace apps? Well the main point is to use an older libc6 to compile your app/libs against to make it compatible with older distributions. The worst case is compiling your app on the latest Ubuntu with a default toolchain as that usually that does not allow any Debian user to use it (because libc6 is usually older there). It would work however with other distros with the same or newer libc6. But that has nothing to do with the API you talk about.

[0xBADCODE]

Valve's approach just better.

You see, Valve's approach is simply better.

• First, they're co-operate with AMD, Intel and Nvidia to improve things rather than just blame them as id guys did. This works far better.
• Then, Valve runs whole store, not just one game. And should I admit that buying CDs/DVDs is a stone age of computing? So it have to be online downloads. Valve got it right. Well, more or less. There could be some nasty issues like DRM but it's a step forward in better approach, so it's more user friendly. At the end of day it's simply wrong to put extra barriers when I want to buy something.
• Valve seems to be far more flexible. They got some real Linux gurus, they really did an absolutely asskicking job in optimizing engine. And they did good PR as well, so many Linux ppl are well aware of their activity. Not something that id does well enough.
• Valve does not releases just one mere game. But a whole bunch of them and engine. Used by dozens of games. And keeps store running. Quite a difference, doh.
• In fact id seems to be on decline. No, really, they're slow these days and seems to have troubles in keeping up with competitors. Sure, they can't afford much attention to Linux. But it's not Linux people fault.

So what? Valve seems to perform much better in many areas at the moment. So I guess they can do it better.

[Kano]

If they really use the default U 12.04 toolchain then they make a huge mistake.

[0xBADCODE]

I'm speaking as a developer. I'm not going to re-design my application two years after I release it because some Linux developer decided to junk a bunch of the API's I used for the latest kernel revision. Its that mindset that's caused Linux to more or less be ignored by the marketplace.

Linux needs a stable API. Period. Now, feel free to change how that API is implemented as needed, but constantly junking interfaces is the quickest way to get people to ditch development for your OS.

As a developer you have to deal with user mode API via various libraries like libc, etc. This is fairly stable. And internal kernel api is none of your business anyway. If you care about kernel api, you're kernel developer and know the drill. And I can't remember many kernel dev's crying about APIs. The most loud crybabies are usually those who never wrote single kernel mode driver at all.

[gamerk2]

Of course, with a bit of luck, the Ubuntu people are smart enough to avoid any software updates that would break Steam games... Then again, that might mean that they get stuck with older versions of Xorg, Qt and whatnot.

My entire point is those said updates SHOULDN'T be causing programs to stop working in the first place.

[Kano]

And what has your app to do with xorg or the kernel?

[Scali]

Valve being naive?
You must be joking.

Well, they don't have any experience in maintaining released applications on linux.

They surely know about the risks.

They *think* they know about the risks, and decided to go for it anyway. We'll have to evaluale that decision again in a few years.

[Scali]

[*] First, they're co-operate with AMD, Intel and Nvidia to improve things

Problem is, Linus Torvalds doesn't want to cooperate with nVidia to improve things (and probably not AMD either).
So by extension, Torvalds does not want to cooperate with Valve either (since Valve is currently targeting nVidia's binary drivers, all the information they published on performance and such was based on these drivers, which literally have gotten 'the finger' from Torvalds).

rather than just blame them as id guys did. This works far better.

[*] Then, Valve runs whole store, not just one game.

If Valve ran the linux distribution as well, and Xorg, Qt, and various other projects crucial to proper functioning of their software, I would have a lot more confidence in the whole endeavour. Currently there are MANY captains on the ship, and not all of them have any vested interest in Valve's software running.