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A Low-Latency Kernel For Linux Gaming

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  • #51
    ping Paradox Uncreated - I invite you to read carefully any announcement MS makes about Latency. Such words as "now we have 1.3msec" is deceptive spin doctoring at its finest since they don't specify anything but a lone number. This is equivalent to the old Hi Fi salesman's (and often manufacturers as well) trick of stating "Our frequency response is 20Hz - 20,000Hz" when they don't specify the wee rub that it is down 12 db at 20 and 20,000 and nowhere near flat in between.

    Systemwide, it is impossible for Windows of any version to deliver 1.3msec since ALL software must pass through the kernel which has a bare minimum of 12 msec delay. Add on just a few default processes and the system average is 18-20 msec. Add on your 3 msec latency USB audio device and that becomes 21-23 msec. Latency is additive and the most fundamental irreducible component is the kernel and you nor nobody else but MS devs can change that and MS obviously won't. Once bitten, twice shy.

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    • #52
      Hi.

      I think Linux with rt-threads, have the advantage of ultra low latency if one wishes. But it will use a lot of cpu, if not hardware assisted. And Linux can be configured for low-jitter, and ultrasmooth and responsive OS/graphics operation aswell.
      With Windows being a more corporate thing, with enthusiasts like yourself, (and me) a bit frustrated about its less enthusiastic parts, such as latency, etc. That though in some versions of windows, such as the old XP, can be eliminated to quite some extent though, by reducing processes running on it. How much they changed it since that I donĀ“t know, but many say XP is the most latency/jitter tweakable OS of Microsoft. To the point that one can understand that a derivative of XP, runs in X-box. I think latencies of 2ms is quite stable on it. But without tweaking it is like you say, horrible latency spikes, lost frames, dropouts in sound with low latency settings etc.

      Best Regards.

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      • #53
        Well it seems I need to eat some of my words since i truly thought Microsoft had learned a severe lesson regarding allowing any application direct access to hardware bypassing all pre-emptive safeguards. Apparently Vista and everything after does indeed allow such commonly dangerous activity which would of course reduce latency at least when using ASIO drivers. To what levels Vista onward can achieve I don't know yet since MS is vague about that and I have been unable to discover yet whether some safeguards are still in place. There are still many reasons a person will choose one over the other but latency appears to at least be close now with ASIO and above average quality hardware.. It remains to be seen whether ASIO4All which can work with average hardware will reveal difficulties. It seems the plot has thickened.

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        • #54
          Originally posted by ParisStaltic View Post
          Since this thread is titled specifically "Linux kernel" I have to wonder what even brought you here but that's OK assuming you came to enhance your knowledge. However if you came just to defend "ur fave" kindly refrain from talking smack about things of which you know little or nothing.
          This thread is also about gaming. And if you want to under-line Linux kernel, then kindly under-line both words. Since Linux is a kernel, there is no operating system called Linux.

          Originally posted by ParisStaltic View Post
          There is a reason each OpSys has the share they do. Windows rules on the Desktop niche because the average user cares not to know about "nuts and bolts" just like many drivers can't even change a tire, let alone rebuild an engine.
          With the exception of web servers, Win pretty much rules the roost on x86 servers as well. Not only desktops. You doubt it?
          https://community.spiceworks.com/net...-and-os-trends

          And what OSes are running in virtual machines and on physical servers around the world? It turns out like with client OSes, Microsoft is dominant. Fully 87.7% of the physical servers and VMs in the Spiceworks network (which are mostly on-premises) run Microsoft Windows Server.
          Originally posted by ParisStaltic View Post
          Linux is on everything from embeddeds to SuperComputers not because it is free as in no cost but because it is Free as in having the freedom to customize for specific usage. I've been using Linux since 2001 and there was a time I did a lot of dualbooting....about 1 year. By 2002 Linux became my main and I have uptimes in excess of 14 months and I'm not one who uses a PC for just email and facebook.
          If you want to measure e-dicks, I've used linux since Red Hat 5.2. Various BSDs past 10+ years and Windows's since Win95. First computer experience was on 1992 or something, using CP/M system of Soviet origin. At the moment I am doing my dabblings in Solaris and other "niche" OSes I can get my hands on..

          Originally posted by ParisStaltic View Post
          FWIW even though I happily spent over $1200 USD for my DAW which for years only ran in Windows, not only did it slowly get eclipsed by Ardour but for the past 2 years the "windows-only" DAW runs happily in Wine. There is absolutely nothing I want nor need to do that Linux won't do and a whole lot that Windows does that I don't want and certainly don't need.
          If I wanted to dabble in professional audio, I would have used OpenBSD, not Linux. It's audio subsystem is much better suited for it.

          Originally posted by ParisStaltic View Post
          The "deep integration" you speak of is a flaw as in "all eggs in one basket". It requires devs provide DLLs since they have no idea what version each client will be using. This increases bloat which in Windows' case is often actually using resources for "readiness". Additionally since any installed application must make a Registry entry (as well as prefers to be in "C:\Program Files") in any version it is far more hacker friendly, easy to navigate. With Win 10 EULA in which you sign away your right to any privacy and everything including your emails even if your entire disc is encrypted, can be read by Microsoft and "phoned home", your ownership is a farce and your security compromised. Then of course we have Latency, completely out of your control.
          "all eggs in one basket".. isn't it exactly where Linux is getting to? And if you are talking about "bloat" - look at Linux major distributions - you cannot install simple text-based server, without it taking 1Gb+ disk space where BSD variants of similar configurations take 2-4x less. Bad argument man.

          Actually, my meaning was: All MS products, operating systems and services are deeply integrated. For example Outlook and Exchange. There are no free "analogue" to it. And it applies to whole shebang.. It's the very reason it rules the roost.

          Win10 privacy. Don't really care. Little customizing and gutting and it's as good as 7. Without telemetry getting any data out. If you know what to do, you can rip out Cortana, Edge, Apps and other crap without crippling the OS functionalities using some of the shared stuff (PC Settings, net management tiles etc). Some Apps I actually like and use (Maps for example is very good in a laptop sporting built-in GPS).

          Originally posted by ParisStaltic View Post
          I'm sorry Bro, as of this date, you simply don't know what your talking about when you characterize Linux. You're free to learn, but you haven't yet. Simple fact. Windows is not better. It's just a wee bit easier and that gap is closing ever since Ubuntu was born even though I personally wish Linux would not try to become "free windows". Everything is a tradeoff and I prefer the knowledge, control and Freedom.to mere convenience.
          well, well..
          Gamers perspective and Linux..
          - Not a fucking thing to play, except extremely limited amount of modern games. Which are usually of specific genre you don't care about at all. Rest of it is old crap over Wine.. may work, may not but it's ancient (Dx9 contemporary or older)
          - Not a fucking way to directly control hardware. For example run custom profiles on GPU fan, over- or underclock according to specific game. In Windows it's easy.
          - Graphics drivers are rather unreliable. Yeah, even if you get out windows-like performance, finally.. one update may fuck it all up beyond repair. And you are back in square 1.
          - Why bother putting up with this crap..

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          • #55
            Maybe .. one should return to The Amiga.

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            • #56
              Originally posted by Paradox Uncreated View Post
              Maybe .. one should return to The Amiga.
              Go for it, then. Audio is your interest, not mine.
              https://www.twitch.tv/videos/90925830

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              • #57
                @ aht0 - Since it was not my position nor desire to "measure e-dicks" or trash Windows, let alone be a party to yet another derailment on to the OpSys Flame War "Chev Rulz! Ford Sux!" track, I'll keep this brief by staying as focused as possible On Topic .

                Since you claim considerable experience with Linux how is it that you don't know the old saw that "Linux IS the (monolithic) Kernel" and all the rest is just distributions ie- packages of init systems, package managers, and DE/WMs along with niche apps?

                Rather than go into detail about statistics, agendas, testing means etc. not to mention Spiceworks "dog in that fight" here's a more recently updated thread from Wikipedia on Global Market shares divided into many categories. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_...rating_systems . Please note that in April 2017 W3Techs reported ~66% Linux and 34% Windows, for whatever that's worth. The point was a simple fact that Linux operates on more platforms and is more customizable for specific use than any other OpSys.

                Additionally it is not shackled by licensing agreements as proprietary systems are (though does suffer some loss for the exact same reason - money) a good example of which is why 32bit Windows is limited to only 4GB of RAM when PAE could have jumped that up by orders of magnitude.

                It is true that some distros seem headed to "all eggs in one basket" but even the worst has a very long way to go to requiring that every app come with it's own .dlls, deposit itself in one specific directory and submit to The Registry. Cathedral and Bazaar doesn't just describe the community, but the original philosophy and design imperatives in Unix of app isolation "do one thing and do it well" and link with text streams as opposed to the MCP-like (yeah, a Tron reference) Ruler All and Lock it Up

                Most importantly your statement (or quote... can't quite tell which) that ..
                Originally posted by aht0
                "Graphics drivers are rather unreliable. Yeah, even if you get out windows-like performance, finally.. one update may fuck it all up beyond repair. And you are back in square 1
                is by no means an objectively true statement. One can look right here on Phoronix to see tests which show that in most cases Linux graphics drivers are on a par with Windows and no special jumping thru hoops is required to justify your "even"..

                Regarding "one update may fuck it up beyond all repair" is a lie. Since Linux is a monolithic kernel and the boot process is user controllable it is easily repaired by anyone who bothers to find out how. Those that fall back to FUBAR re installing are just those brainwashed by Windows methodology and haven't learned that Linux is especially different in this regard. A graphics driver implementation is easily dumped back to VESA so that booting at the very least to command line is always an option, where the borked driver install can be removed, repaired, or replaced in mere minutes. Linux has more than one layer of "Safe Boot". FWIW in 15 years of Linux as my main I have had to do this over graphics drivers exactly ZERO TIMES though admittedly I buy only nVidia cards since I don't resent their problem with Open Source and embrace their excellent support of alternate OpSyses. I use the manufacturer's install binary and it always performs beautifully, asking me f I want some options or warning me if anything seems a problem.

                Regarding games, while it is still true that many AAA titles are crippled or even impossible in Linux that number grows less every year. Steam and Wine have both been "game changers" and it is worthy of note that Gabe Newell's Steam as well as increased Linux Desktop usage is changing many game developers position on Linux support. It is worthy of note that Square Enix's most recent Deus Ex had a Linux release within a few months of the other platforms while the Mac version is still MIA.

                If you prefer Windows it is no skin off my nose. I readily admit that Microsoft has carved out a valid and important niche so you're welcome to it. Go negative and spread ridiculous FUD about Linux though and we're going toe-to-toe.

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                • #58
                  GNU culture is the same I see.. Atleast the Amiga had ultra-low latency with its audio chip. They got it right on a 7.14Mhz CPU. With An OS, multitasking several apps etc. And no slowdowns or glitches when switching etc. And Without an OS, even the c64 could do low-latency audio - lol. There is just something "wrong" with modern OSs who fail to have codepaths that enable similar structures to what goes on here.

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                  • #59
                    Originally posted by ParisStaltic View Post
                    @ aht0 - Since it was not my position nor desire to "measure e-dicks" or trash Windows, let alone be a party to yet another derailment on to the OpSys Flame War "Chev Rulz! Ford Sux!" track, I'll keep this brief by staying as focused as possible On Topic .
                    Very well.
                    Originally posted by ParisStaltic View Post
                    Since you claim considerable experience with Linux how is it that you don't know the old saw that "Linux IS the (monolithic) Kernel" and all the rest is just distributions ie- packages of init systems, package managers, and DE/WMs along with niche apps?
                    Majority of Linux fanatics/aplogists-whatever in Phoronix do not make this distinction, putting everything into same kettle and calling the whole shebang Linux. I assumed you are similar.

                    Originally posted by ParisStaltic View Post
                    Rather than go into detail about statistics, agendas, testing means etc. not to mention Spiceworks "dog in that fight" here's a more recently updated thread from Wikipedia on Global Market shares divided into many categories. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_...rating_systems . Please note that in April 2017 W3Techs reported ~66% Linux and 34% Windows, for whatever that's worth. The point was a simple fact that Linux operates on more platforms and is more customizable for specific use than any other OpSys.
                    The exact reason why I used Spiceworks data. W3Techs statistics is purely "online" (showing servers with public access) in it's nature. It does not reflect servers sitting in Intranets at all. Spiceworks data shows Internet-connected and Intranet servers both.

                    Originally posted by ParisStaltic View Post
                    Additionally it is not shackled by licensing agreements as proprietary systems are (though does suffer some loss for the exact same reason - money) a good example of which is why 32bit Windows is limited to only 4GB of RAM when PAE could have jumped that up by orders of magnitude.
                    It is shackled in a multiple ways. Unable to use code licensed under incompatible open-source license (like CDDL). Unable to change it's license unless having the agreement of all it's devs.

                    I do not quite get the PAE talk. Even Windows 2003 supported it as far as I remember it. I used it for a while as a replacement for WindowsXP (there was method for turning Win2003 into "workstation mode")

                    Originally posted by ParisStaltic View Post
                    It is true that some distros seem headed to "all eggs in one basket" but even the worst has a very long way to go to requiring that every app come with it's own .dlls, deposit itself in one specific directory and submit to The Registry. Cathedral and Bazaar doesn't just describe the community, but the original philosophy and design imperatives in Unix of app isolation "do one thing and do it well" and link with text streams as opposed to the MCP-like (yeah, a Tron reference) Ruler All and Lock it Up
                    You should not quote "do one thing and do it well" related to Linux. It applies to BSD's, not to Linux for a long time now.

                    Originally posted by ParisStaltic View Post
                    Most importantly your statement (or quote... can't quite tell which) that .. is by no means an objectively true statement. One can look right here on Phoronix to see tests which show that in most cases Linux graphics drivers are on a par with Windows and no special jumping thru hoops is required to justify your "even"..
                    Please, DO TRY gaming on Linux. Just try. Something competitive online. Online against other human players, all the little issues crawl open fastest. Single player you can put on pause and shrug the problems off, multiplayer you cannot. You can argue endlessly, nothing beats the experience, or frustration of trying.

                    Originally posted by ParisStaltic View Post
                    Regarding "one update may fuck it up beyond all repair" is a lie. Since Linux is a monolithic kernel and the boot process is user controllable it is easily repaired by anyone who bothers to find out how. Those that fall back to FUBAR re installing are just those brainwashed by Windows methodology and haven't learned that Linux is especially different in this regard. A graphics driver implementation is easily dumped back to VESA so that booting at the very least to command line is always an option, where the borked driver install can be removed, repaired, or replaced in mere minutes. Linux has more than one layer of "Safe Boot". FWIW in 15 years of Linux as my main I have had to do this over graphics drivers exactly ZERO TIMES though admittedly I buy only nVidia cards since I don't resent their problem with Open Source and embrace their excellent support of alternate OpSyses. I use the manufacturer's install binary and it always performs beautifully, asking me f I want some options or warning me if anything seems a problem.
                    Heh, teach your gramma suck eggs. Question would be, what is your time worth. From certain point, it's easier to reinstall.

                    Originally posted by ParisStaltic View Post
                    Regarding games, while it is still true that many AAA titles are crippled or even impossible in Linux that number grows less every year. Steam and Wine have both been "game changers" and it is worthy of note that Gabe Newell's Steam as well as increased Linux Desktop usage is changing many game developers position on Linux support. It is worthy of note that Square Enix's most recent Deus Ex had a Linux release within a few months of the other platforms while the Mac version is still MIA.
                    Majority of which run over emulation layer with lessened performance. Very few have true Linux clients. Steam Linux gaming seems to be dropping, not increasing.

                    Originally posted by ParisStaltic View Post
                    If you prefer Windows it is no skin off my nose. I readily admit that Microsoft has carved out a valid and important niche so you're welcome to it. Go negative and spread ridiculous FUD about Linux though and we're going toe-to-toe.
                    If you do not play or have knowledge about gaming outside of what you could google, why argue me. Believe me, I've tried gaming on Linux. Windows works for it most of the time, Linux does not. Not if you want to play against other human beings who use all the little issues you have against you. Single player gaming on Linux is not that bad IF you get the game running.

                    Outside gaming, for the rest of things I use FreeBSD, Manjaro OpenRC or OpenSUSE. In that order of frequency. OSes I am playing with, just to test them out, do not count.
                    Last edited by aht0; 06-26-2017, 06:17 AM.

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                    • #60
                      One day, we shall have a good OS, and an internet culture without fighting and violence.

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