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  • #61
    Unfortunately, almost all I see out of the Open Source crowd is an endless mass of Quake clones with a small handful of clones of other games. There are a few gems here and there that are truly unique, but in the end, why the hell would you want to play Maryo Ripoff Chronicles or Tux "Not Mario" Kart or Tux "wishes it was Avalanche 1080" Racer or Tetris Remake 1324 or Quake3+ when you could play a new, interesting, innovative game that has higher quality art, more refined mechanics, and an overall better experience? The clones are interesting to people who want to point and say, "I can play an Open Source game!" while to the vast majority of regular people who just want to have fun, the clones are already out of date and boring and the Open Source teams are for the most part failing to compete with even the lowest-budget commercial indie games like World of Goo, Castle Crashers, Geometry Wars, Bejeweled, Puzzle Quest, and so on.
    Quake clones? How, in that they are first person shooters running on a 3D engine? I'm relatively sure I know the games you refer to. Nexuiz, Alien Arena? Far more like UT than Quake. Warsow? Kinda like Quake, but hardly a clone of it. Tremulous? Certainly nothing like Quake other than it's a 3D FPS. You might as well just say that every 3D FPS out there is a Quake clone. The only one of these that is truly a Quake clone, is Open Arena, and that is it's intention, to make a free version of Quake 3.

    And how do you define "failing to compete"? Do you have detailed reports on #'s of users per day, or is another subjective opinion based on personal preferences? Of course simple puzzle games have vast numbers of players, but that's not a fair comparison. A more fair comparison would be comparing to competing commercial titles like Quake IV or UT3(and you'd be surprised, maybe, to know that many OS "quake clones" have larger playerbases than many commercial FPS games.

    Furthermore, I'd hardly call a dozen or so FPS games a "mass of Quake clones". There are clearly VASTLY more other types of OS games out there. The difference is, those games don't have the replayability factor that the multiplayer FPS games have, so they don't see the continual development, periodic releases, and therefore not in the news nearly as much.

    You may think that these games are "out of date and boring", and I grant you a couple are in fact in that boat, but the ones that are more consistently updated are hardly out of date, and boring is just an opinion, as many people, evidenced by the amount of players, still want the old-school deathmatch experience. Many of these games are advancing their engines and technology to higher standards, and continue to close the gap between themselves and commercial game engines. Most of them are enhancing their gameplay to something far beyond what the original Quake Deathmatch offered.

    I can't speak for the development teams of Warsow, or Nexuiz, or Tremulous, but I can speak for the project I am a part of, Alien Arena. Our goal is, and was never, meant to clone Quake. We set out to make a game that had new elements, and use technologies that weren't available when Quake was released to make it a more modern looking game. We added a variety of game types, and we also refined and added to the base Deathmatch experience to make it something we felt was more interesting. Should Unreal Tournament never have been released, because that is essentially the same goal they had? I think not.

    Also, you have to understand that not everyone has even played the "originals". The clones of games offer new gamers an opportunity to play a game for the first time freely, or in some cases, period(if there is no access to the original). It's very unfair,IMO, to complain about the types of games out there being made. You might as well just complain about the popularity of a specific genre in general, because that is the very reason more of one type of game gets made than another. And if that is the case, you just have to consider that maybe it's your tastes that are outdated and out of the mainstream, and not the games.

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    • #62
      Erm... what "innovations" are there in these mentioned FPS games? I hardly see anything which has not been done before in commercial titles or that are just a small turn on a screw.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Dragonlord View Post
        Erm... what "innovations" are there in these mentioned FPS games? I hardly see anything which has not been done before in commercial titles or that are just a small turn on a screw.
        Show me where I mentioned "innovations" and then get back to me

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Irritant View Post
          Show me where I mentioned "innovations" and then get back to me
          I take it upon this quote:
          Most of them are enhancing their gameplay to something far beyond what the original Quake Deathmatch offered.

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          • #65
            A clone would mean an exact copy. Most of these games offer lots more extra, whether it be visuals or gameplay.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Dragonlord View Post
              I take it upon this quote:
              And that's your mistake. Enhancements aren't equal to "innovations". Furthermore, innovative gameplay doesn't always equate to "good" gameplay.

              So in our case, with Alien Arena, I can list some of the "enhancements" that have been made over base Q3(note, we didnt use the Q3 engine as our base, but I'll use that as a reference since that was the Quake game that was current when we started AA).

              Aside from the different theme, weapons, and maps...
              These are what I can think of right off the top of my head that base Q3 did not have(mods do not count,they aren't part of base Q3 and all of this is built into the base AA game):

              Gameplay:

              Alternate firing modes.
              Vehicles.
              Deathball mode.
              Cattle Prod mode.
              Team Core Assault mode.
              Duel Mode.
              Dodging moves.
              Grapple hook.
              Mutators(instagib, rocket arena, vampire, etc..)
              Rewards system for powerups.
              Class based mode.
              Headshots.
              Killing sprees.

              Engine(Q3 has none of these):

              In-game IRC client.
              Matchmaker.
              Real time per-pixel lighting.
              Lensflares and light volumes.
              Real time shadow volumes and shadow maps.
              Parallax/normal/specular mapping.
              Per-pixel water effects.
              Real particle system.
              Weather effects.
              Sun objects.
              Use of VBO.
              Use of FBO.
              Heat distortions from explosions.
              Fullscreen pain distortions.
              Doppler effect.

              There is plenty more. As you can see this is clearly more than just "turning some screws"(which I found to be a rather insulting comment). We've spent years working on this game, evolving it, and keeping it moving forward. The same goes for the devs of Warsow, Nexuiz, and others. I'm sure they too could come up with lists every bit if not longer than I did. To call them clones is arrogant, degrading and insulting to the hard work that people put into these games. Just because they don't meet some elitist code of "innovation" it is no reason to continually denigrate their work.

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              • #67
                Sounds to me like UT-xxx what goes for the game mechanics. So the first though crossing my mind is "why playing this if you have it already refined and working elsewhere?". So the "clone" argument is actually not so far fetched. If you call an AAA title a clone if it rehashes what has been done before why should such projects be handled differently?

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Dragonlord View Post
                  Sounds to me like UT-xxx what goes for the game mechanics. So the first though crossing my mind is "why playing this if you have it already refined and working elsewhere?". So the "clone" argument is actually not so far fetched. If you call an AAA title a clone if it rehashes what has been done before why should such projects be handled differently?
                  AA is more like a mix of UT and Quake gameplay, with other things added in that don't exist in either game, particularly in the weapons. Calling it a "clone" would imply that it was trying to actually be one of these games, which it is not. Same goes for Nexuiz and Warsow, etc.

                  Is UT a clone of Quake? Is Quake a clone of Doom? Similar...maybe...but certainly not clones just because they are all 3D deathmatch games.

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                  • #69
                    I hardly call a slight variation in weapons not being a clone. These games do in fact share similarities. They mostly differ in the pacing and a slight different focus. But if you have played Quake you have mostly also played UT (DM, CTF and so forth). I don't think Quake had Dom, Ass or BR but BR is simply CTF in disguise and Dom is more or less CTF with variable capture points. UT simply focuses more on team modes while Quake focus more on straight DM but other than that there is not much of a difference except the artwork and some variations.

                    Stuff like TF (the original, not the valve crap) or SF (SourceForts) I call interesting and a true variation as the game mechanics actually are propelled into a different direction. Besides "mixing" as you say is cloning... just that you clone from more than one source :P

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Dragonlord View Post
                      I hardly call a slight variation in weapons not being a clone. These games do in fact share similarities. They mostly differ in the pacing and a slight different focus. But if you have played Quake you have mostly also played UT (DM, CTF and so forth). I don't think Quake had Dom, Ass or BR but BR is simply CTF in disguise and Dom is more or less CTF with variable capture points. UT simply focuses more on team modes while Quake focus more on straight DM but other than that there is not much of a difference except the artwork and some variations.

                      Stuff like TF (the original, not the valve crap) or SF (SourceForts) I call interesting and a true variation as the game mechanics actually are propelled into a different direction. Besides "mixing" as you say is cloning... just that you clone from more than one source :P
                      So in your eyes, every deathmatch FPS is pretty much a clone

                      IMO (and in the dictionary's O) - being similar is not being a clone. Like Melcar said, a clone is an exact copy. Sorry to pull semantics on you, but you're talking in circles, and it's getting rather tedious at this point discussing it any further.

                      And does it really matter if you or anyone else think they are clones? The point is really that these games have improved on the originals, are free and being continually developed and have their followings.

                      I'd expect this kind of overt negativity from immature fanbois, but c-mon, from a fellow developer? That's just bush-league and weak. You should learn to show some respect.

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