Originally posted by blackiwid
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Steam Survey Results For November 2024: Linux Gaming Marketshare Slightly Higher
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Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post
It's not a real distribution until Valve offers it as more than a recovery image for a single device. The ISOs they do offer are for the janky SteamOS based on Debian.
I agree with the points you're trying to make. I'm just salty over Valve not releasing an actual OS and leaving the greater Linux community to have to hack something together. While these solutions are close enough and work good enough, it would still be nice to run something official so I'm not worrying if some oddball issue is caused by some difference like Arch-based being on a newer kernel and userspace than what SteamOS is offering.
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Originally posted by moonwalker View Post
Oh yeah, I completely forgot about that one - IIRC it is Fedora-based? RW rootfs, I assume?
Just found to search the name of toolbox this:
Bazzite is a custom image built upon Fedora Atomic Desktops that brings the best of Linux gaming to all of your devices.
Have to look up what's in there...
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Originally posted by avis View PostWhat about native Linux software, and not extremely limited software that's available in the Steam Store?
You even quoted it!
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Originally posted by moonwalker View PostFirst, there were plenty proper arguments, you just decided to (initially, until edit) ignore them in your response.
Second, while I am chuckling at Russia going back to Soviet-style C&C approach to economics, I was genuinely excited about developments like YotaPhone and disappointed it never took off, and if anything good ever comes out of that linked thingy I would be excited about that too, though I wouldn't invest in it until Russia withdraws its forces from everywhere they should not be, choosing to contribute to fundraisers helping Ukrainians to fight back instead.
Third, yeah, death threads are effing BS, man. Granted, you do come across extremely arrogant most of the time, and changing the tone of your posts might help a bit, but death threats are on a whole another level that I cannot condone even for known criminals - those should be getting due process and fair trial, not death threats. Sorry to hear you have to deal with that nonsense. And still waiting to see if you have to say anything of substance to my comment on topic.
Simple:- Perception that Linux cannot do a lot of things Windows or macOS can, which is part truth and part persistent myths. Most of it comes down to having to re-learn using completely different tools and workflows to get the same work done, and vast majority of people don't want to learn a bunch of incidentals when they already have a tool of trade they learned and can use effectively/efficiently, unless they see a significant benefit in said learning - e.g., a significant increase in productivity or a significant decrease in costs. Windows has a humongous first mover benefit there, Apple - carefully crafted image (with unique applications and hardware).
- Except for professionals, most people don't really need a computer, they need an appliance that allows them to check their email, browse the web, listen to music, watch movies, play games. Even among professionals, most people care little about OS and don't want to deal with installing/reinstalling it, they just want their apps/tools to work. They're spoiled for choice in ready-to-use appliances varying from high-end devices from Apple running macOS to cheapo chinese devices running Windows (I'm speaking here perceptions, not facts, as it is perceptions that drive markets), but there aren't a lot of machines sold with Linux pre-installed, not in places like Best Buy, or Costco, or Amazon, or other big chain stores... Steam Deck is in a unique position here, and it does account for a significant bump in Steam survey, which IMO speaks plenty for the power of appliance-like device with OS being pre-installed out of the box.
Linux is incapable of working reliably, for all use cases and all people (in the most recent Wayland thread people seriously told me I should abandon my DE and switch to Gnome/KDE just to get all the features of Wayland, isn't it some kind of cringe? I mean Linux used to require special hardware, now Linux needs special software to be usable? LMAO what?) and that's only a concern on the desktop. On the server it's been super strong for more than two decades now. In my company we've had servers with over 600 days of uptime (isolated, don't think we're idiots). But those servers churn data and send it via wires. They do nothing else. No UI, no graphics, no input, no audio, no video, nothing.
The reason Valve forces an immutable image on their devices is because they want to make sure people get the experience they want with as few regressions or bugs as possible. You just can't get that with run-of-the-mill Linux distributions, except maybe RHEL, which is not a suitable gaming platform due to a severely outdated software stack.
And I totally agree that the PC market has been dying as PC has become a luxury hobby and most people are better served by their smartphones/tablets or consoles.
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Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post
A lot of that just described Fedora Kinoite and immutable Linux distributions in general
Different distributions do things differently. Under your criteria only Glibc counts. Does that make only the Glibc half of Void Linux a real distribution? Are the MUSL repositories Fake Void Linux?
Not that this discussion matters. In its current state, SteamOS is an OS, not a distribution. That's pedantic, but it matters. There's a wide berth of what constitutes being a distribution, but the biggest one is actually being distributed. It's in the name. A single recovery image for a single devices isn't distributed.
I also find it funny Asus went with Windows because "a big one is that Microsoft has dedicated validation teams that ensure its operating system works across many different hardware configurations and chips" and yet we had the whole Windows 11 KB503853 update disaster where games stuttered like crazy and became near unplayable on the Asus Rog Ally. Now what did Avis say again, ah yes "People who buy consoles do NOT want to deal with a crazy amount of ̶L̶i̶n̶u̶x̶ Windows bugs and regressions.", I swear the best comedy is the one that writes itself.
Originally posted by avis View PostLinux fans love to lie to themselves. It's like saying that Sony Playstation runs ... FreeBSD. Never heard a single FreeBSD fan ever say or claim that. Won't stop Linux fans from claiming that SteamOS is Linux.
But surely Avis knows better than a key figure at Valve who worked on the Steamdeck, just like he always tries to claim he knows better than the Wayland development team or the Linux Kernel team on the topic of Stable ABI. One has to wonder why he even graces us with his presence on Phoronix when he could be working on implementing all the solutions he keeps proclaiming we so desperately need and creating the best ̶L̶i̶n̶u̶x̶ OS ever! Birdie OS with the Abird kernel. Or why no one else even bothered when we have a dozen specialized unofficial kernels, some even aimed at gaming and workstations like Xanmod and Liquorix, crazy how not a single real Kernel developer agrees with him, but according to **checks papers** his ego, all that disagreeing means he must be doing something right, because he can't possibly be wrong and full of himself, right?
<The following is extreme sarcasm>
I mean the lack of stable ABI has such a negative impact, just look at out of tree driver projects like OpenRazer, in the last 3 years from December 12 2021 to the latest October 8 2024 build we had a total of 10 releases and 1 (and only 1) even mentioned it was for an upcoming Kernel (6.4)! The others just list more devices that got supported but don't let that fool you, in that same time we saw the releases of Kernels 5.15 (released October 2021 but still latest on December 2021) to 5.19 (July 2022) and 6.0 to 6.11 (September 2024), clearly for each of those 15 kernel releases OpenRazer must have broken! And oh no there is no new release since Kernel 6.12 released! Arch's last build of the openrazer-driver-dkms was 09 October over a month before the 6.12 release! The issue tracker must be flooded with it being broken on Kernel 6.12 released in mid November!
And lets of course ignore the fact that using my SteamDeck running SteamOS3 I can install Qpwgraph and Guitarix in desktop mode through the Discover Store/Flatpaks and set it up with my Scarlet 4th Gen 2i2 for which drivers are in the kernel and use my Steamdeck as a small yet portable virtual amp, just like a PS5!
And I'm planning on putting in a 2TB M2230 TLC ssd I picked up during Black Friday but use the Bazzite preconfigured Steamdeck ISO so it has a Fedora base, perhaps daringly with Gnome instead of KDE, what am I saying, according to Avis all this is impossible, the people at Bazzite must be trying to fool everyone with their installation guide in their docs. Don't they know the mighty Avis will lay bare these lies!
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Originally posted by moonwalker View Post
Try installing Windows on one of those units built into monitor that have no keyboard built-in... Ah, you would first connect keyboard to it, right. Then you'll find out that unless Windows installer image happened to have the network driver for the adapter used in that unit, you're shit out of luck until you download a bunch of "patches, firmware and software" on another computer, copy it over to a USB stick, and install it on your new machine. Even if network works out of the box you may still need to manually download a bunch of drivers. That simply comes with the territory of installing a general-purpose operating system that wasn't developed specifically for the given device, pretending that other devices are somehow better than Steam Deck in that regard is just ignoring the obvious.
Case in point - HP EliteBook 860 G9, had to install Windows 11 recently (OS it was shipped with originally). Downloaded latest Windows 11 ISO, put it on USB, booted - had to go through installer using only keyboard, Windows wouldn't recognize touchpad at all until I connected to the Internet after installation and downloaded the driver, though would work with external mouse. Various Linux distributions work similarly to Windows 11 on the same laptop, some a bit better, some a bit worse. Steam Deck in that regard isn't that different from a PC with built-in screen but no built-in input devices. macOS looks like is an exceptions, but it really isn't - it has a finite list of hardware units it has to support, unlike Windows and generic Linux distros.
So no, I do understand basic English, it just that you don't seem to understand the basic realities of computing - the only way to get a "slap the image and go" experience of installing OS on a device is if the OS image was purposefully crafted for the specific device(s), and any attempt to compare the experience of installing a Linux distro or Windows on SteamDeck with installing FreeBSD on Play Station is misrepresenting the reality - I haven't tried installing FreeBSD on PS5, but I did try installing Linux on PS3, and there it was a challenge even just to get the core OS to boot. Having to use external keyboard and mouse for a little while until Steam is installed and configured to auto-start on boot to handle Steam Deck's inputs is nothing in comparison.
When you install an average Linux distro on your SteamDeck its multiple feature just won't work at all. It looks like the Steam Linux kernel is heavily patched: https://static.sched.com/hosted_file...ss-eu-2023.pdf
I glanced over this PDF, and it looks like SteamOS is kind of like a "standard" Linux distro, except it has a ton of extra tidbits here and there.
Yep, I can install Windows on a Steam Deck no problem, detach the keyboard and it will work. Windows has come with a software keyboard since Windows 7 or something while the vast majority of Linux distros don't provide it out of the box and I'm far from sure it will work for your DE screen even if you install it. No such issue with SteamOS. BTW, it's called SteamOS, not Steam Linux OS.Last edited by avis; 02 December 2024, 02:42 PM.
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I installed the recent FreeBD 14.2-RELEASE, no Steam, and play the games I'm interested in without problem
Originally posted by avis View Post
Let's phrase your lies differently:- Can it run any other Linux distro and everything will work right out of the box without a heavy amount of tinkering? No.
- "Normal" desktop as in what Valve has forced on you? Yeah, you're right. Good luck using anything else.
- Install them systemwide? Nope, you can't. Then is SteamOS a normal/average Linux distro? Well, it isn't, it's an immutable image, something like Fedora Silverblue (run mostly by uber geeks). How do you install updates? Well, in an average Linux distro you may choose to update or not update each installed package. SteamOS? Update the whole image once Valve has released it.
- SteamOS is it's own distro
- I'm convinced anything on Linux can be done on any mainstream distro
- If I had Steam Deck, I'd probably toy with SteamOS for a bit, install Fedora Workstation if I found SteamOS usable, but likely have Windows on it because... it's a portable X86 gaming console, and I know the general gist of Linux gaming enough since 2016 that Linux gaming is more about being able to do it, vs doing it well
(I'm more into the form-factor and hardware vs the software bits making that hardware work well)
The same people tolerating 50ms+ extra latency on VR because of a convenience of wireless, vs thin generic USB-C cable on Meta Quest for years is a big pet-peeve of mine, and that's comparable to people pushing Wayland since 2016 when I found it intolerable with a mouse I could grab off the shelf from any Walmart in the US (ya'll can praise Wayland while a 1000Hz mouse lagged-happily across the screen worlds-worse than Xorg and Windows).Last edited by Espionage724; 02 December 2024, 03:57 PM.
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Originally posted by avis View PostWhen you install an average Linux distro on your SteamDeck its multiple feature just won't work at all. It looks like the Steam Linux kernel is heavily patched: https://static.sched.com/hosted_file...ss-eu-2023.pdf
Perhaps specifically slide 46....
This one:
Or perhaps specify which slides gave you the impression the kernel used by SteamOS is "heavily patched" and perhaps evidence said patches don't make it upstream or to other distributions? Surely there are plenty of examples, right? Not like we have a couple of distro's using a lot of the packages SteamOS has so you can have a SteamOS like Linux on other X86 handheld devices.
Originally posted by avis View PostWindows has come with a software keyboard since Windows 7
Okay, and just follow me on this one.
What if, just WHAT IF the HID Drivers for the touch screen aren't loaded in during the install like how this person experienced during a Windows 10 install on the Microsoft Surface 3 (I'm guessing you would say, clearly an incompatible and old device that Microsoft had no way of testing in 2015) or like with this one where someone had the same issue with the Surface 9 and a Win 11 recovery image but used another Surface 9 to create the recovery image once with and without checking the box "include options from this computer" (clearly he has to do it from the Surface with the broken install not from another one), don't they know it just works™.
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