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  • Originally posted by qarium View Post

    VR support is a performance problem
    heres the thing

    VR doubles the number of triangles you have to draw in a raster pipeline, generally halving performance.

    however VR has no impact on the number of rays you have to trace in RT, the only setting that has a meaningful effect on performance in RT is resolution.

    nvidia is already in a position now they could sell a mobile device that will do alan wake 2 max settings in moderately high res VR for switch prices at a profit.

    PS5/PSVR2 is already doing it, but quest 3 is winning because of the price difference.
    Last edited by mSparks; 13 May 2024, 03:21 AM.

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    • Originally posted by mSparks View Post
      heres the thing
      VR doubles the number of triangles you have to draw in a raster pipeline, generally halving performance.
      however VR has no impact on the number of rays you have to trace in RT, the only setting that has a meaningful effect on performance in RT is resolution.
      nvidia is already in a position now they could sell a mobile device that will do alan wake 2 max settings in moderately high res VR for switch prices at a profit.
      PS5/PSVR2 is already doing it, but quest 3 is winning because of the price difference.
      i found your so called Nvidia magic bullet and well its nothing like you claim...

      https://www-heise-de.translate.goog/...&_x_tr_hl=de&_ x_tr_pto=wapp

      Mediatek has a deal with Nvidia and well Mediatek is not well known for super fast ARM cpus...

      something like this is their fastest system:

      " SoC Mediatek Dimensity 9200 Plus, 64bit
      CPU 1x 3.35GHz Cortex-X3 + 3x 3.00GHz Cortex-A715 + 4x 2.00GHz Cortex-A510
      GPU Immortalis-G715 MC11"

      as you see only the GPU whould be from Nvidia...

      see their fastest cpu right now is: CPU 1x 3.35GHz Cortex-X3 the SOC Mediatek Dimensity 9200 plus is produced in TSMC N4P and the future Nvidia product will be produced in 3nm...

      this means the performance jump will not be that big they maybe go from 3.35ghz to 3,6ghz and Cortex-X4 who knows.

      the possibility that the next valve steam deck is ARM cpu based is zero zero zero...

      can you please explain to me how you believe that such a solution with slow ARM Cortex-X3/X4 cores would have any change against the AMD Strix Halo SOC with ZEN5 cpu cores???...

      yes you may say the nvidia gpu is so magic ...
      Phantom circuit Sequence Reducer Dyslexia

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      • Originally posted by qarium View Post

        the possibility that the next valve steam deck is ARM cpu based is zero zero zero....
        I already said, I expect the CPU to be AMD chiplets?
        Originally posted by qarium View Post
        yes you may say the nvidia gpu is so magic ...
        Putting the graphics of Cyberpunk2077 into a game from 2007 "simply" by swapping a graphics library seems pretty magical to me tbh, I guess you'll just have to wait and see it with your own eyes.

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        • Originally posted by mSparks View Post
          I already said, I expect the CPU to be AMD chiplets?
          and you really believe this shit ? why should AMD allow this ?

          Originally posted by mSparks View Post
          Putting the graphics of Cyberpunk2077 into a game from 2007 "simply" by swapping a graphics library seems pretty magical to me tbh, I guess you'll just have to wait and see it with your own eyes.
          this is not how the market works... if you want a Nvidia GPU you get a ARM Cortex-X3 Mediatek SOC cpu...
          the market does not work like this just get some AMD ZEN5 chiplet and put in a Nvidia chiplet LOL-..

          what a nonsense...

          and all what you did write here "Putting the graphics of Cyberpunk2077 into a game from 2007 "simply" by swapping a graphics library" has nothing to do with the hardware and this raytracing stuff works with AMD hardware as well.

          if there comes a AMD Strix Halo SOC based valve steam deck then of course this games will run there.
          Phantom circuit Sequence Reducer Dyslexia

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          • Originally posted by qarium View Post

            and you really believe this shit ? why should AMD allow this ?
            they already did

            Originally posted by qarium View Post
            this is not how the market works... if you want a Nvidia GPU you get a ARM Cortex-X3 Mediatek SOC cpu...
            the market does not work like this just get some AMD ZEN5 chiplet and put in a Nvidia chiplet LOL-..

            what a nonsense...

            and all what you did write here "Putting the graphics of Cyberpunk2077 into a game from 2007 "simply" by swapping a graphics library" has nothing to do with the hardware and this raytracing stuff works with AMD hardware as well.

            if there comes a AMD Strix Halo SOC based valve steam deck then of course this games will run there.
            AMD has no equivalent to RT cores, all RT cores can do is raytracing.
            you can do raytracing in shaders, but the gap is as wide as and literaly software vs hardware accelerated graphics, just GPGPu vs dedicated silicon.

            also, AMD gave up on GPUs, not "just me" seeing this trend.

            Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
            Last edited by mSparks; 13 May 2024, 10:05 PM.

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            • Originally posted by mSparks View Post
              they already did
              thats nonsense then you have no unified ram address space
              means you have then RAM for the CPU and extra Vram for the GPU
              what makes this system very expensive.

              the complete point of a system like AMD Strix Halo SOC is that you only have 1 unified ram that brings down the costs a lot compared to ram+vram systems.

              so Nvidia can not just buy AMD Zen5 chiplets and glue it together with their Nvidia gpus without losing this price benefit.

              Originally posted by mSparks View Post
              AMD has no equivalent to RT cores, all RT cores can do is raytracing.
              you can do raytracing in shaders, but the gap is as wide as and literaly software vs hardware accelerated graphics, just GPGPu vs dedicated silicon.
              also, AMD gave up on GPUs, not "just me" seeing this trend.
              https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eAVZQGfU6Vo
              I think customers really don't care how exactly the raytracing is rendered AMD could build a Quantum Computer who bounche the light rays or they could build a AI engine who emulate raytracing the customers don't care.

              so at the time of a AMD radeon 5700XT you would also have said: "AMD gave up on GPUs"

              on RDNA4 it is the same there is maybe no 8900XTX but a 8800XT will be good enough.

              Phantom circuit Sequence Reducer Dyslexia

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              • Originally posted by qarium View Post

                thats nonsense then you have no unified ram address space
                means you have then RAM for the CPU and extra Vram for the GPU
                what makes this system very expensive.

                the complete point of a system like AMD Strix Halo SOC is that you only have 1 unified ram that brings down the costs a lot compared to ram+vram systems.

                so Nvidia can not just buy AMD Zen5 chiplets and glue it together with their Nvidia gpus without losing this price benefit.
                Nvidia dont buy anything, they sell it.
                Valve dont produce any silicon, they resell it.
                What valve have in house now is the detailed technical expertise to build solutions from multiple venders. They will do that, and I for one have pretty high confidence they are well placed to do the best job of it right now
                Originally posted by qarium View Post
                I think customers really don't care how exactly the raytracing is rendered
                I completely agree. customers also dont care about the company, they care about performance and a great gaming experience.

                nvidia 1,000,000x'd that over the last 10 years. and expect to 1,000,000x everything again over the next 10. The relative outcome of that vs AMD should be 100% clear from the stats in this survey. I dont understand the confusion or cope.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by mSparks View Post
                  Nvidia dont buy anything, they sell it.
                  Valve dont produce any silicon, they resell it.
                  What valve have in house now is the detailed technical expertise to build solutions from multiple venders. They will do that, and I for one have pretty high confidence they are well placed to do the best job of it right now
                  I completely agree. customers also dont care about the company, they care about performance and a great gaming experience.
                  nvidia 1,000,000x'd that over the last 10 years. and expect to 1,000,000x everything again over the next 10. The relative outcome of that vs AMD should be 100% clear from the stats in this survey. I dont understand the confusion or cope.
                  only because valve has the expertise to build solutions from multible vendors does not mean they do so.
                  they maybe open up their operating system to other vendors ...
                  so we maybe see a handheld with ARM cpu and Nvidia GPU but it will clearly not come from Valve...

                  also it looks to me that Nintendo will quit the custom-silicon design and will just put in a cheap Mediatek SOC with a Nvidia GPU maybe.

                  the time for custom silicon for handheld's is more or less over... i am sure the next steam deck will also no longer use a custom-silicon design.

                  SOCs like AMD Strix Halo are to good to justify any custom silicon. Mediatek+Nvidia SOC will also be better than what Nintendo needs.

                  but the time for Nvidia in this field clearly runs out because the second generation of qualcomm elite X will add high performance Raytracing to... (the first generation does not have raytracing ASIC)

                  "nvidia 1,000,000x'd that over the last 10 years."

                  of course... Nvidia is a AI company now they no longer care about the low-margin gaming sectore.

                  they give their gaming gpu tech to Mediatek because they know the profits in this sector are to low

                  they can make 1000times more money in the AI/CUDA field
                  Phantom circuit Sequence Reducer Dyslexia

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                  • Originally posted by qarium View Post

                    only because valve has the expertise to build solutions from multible vendors does not mean they do so.
                    they maybe open up their operating system to other vendors ...
                    so we maybe see a handheld with ARM cpu and Nvidia GPU but it will clearly not come from Valve...

                    also it looks to me that Nintendo will quit the custom-silicon design and will just put in a cheap Mediatek SOC with a Nvidia GPU maybe.

                    the time for custom silicon for handheld's is more or less over... i am sure the next steam deck will also no longer use a custom-silicon design.

                    SOCs like AMD Strix Halo are to good to justify any custom silicon. Mediatek+Nvidia SOC will also be better than what Nintendo needs.

                    but the time for Nvidia in this field clearly runs out because the second generation of qualcomm elite X will add high performance Raytracing to... (the first generation does not have raytracing ASIC)

                    "nvidia 1,000,000x'd that over the last 10 years."

                    of course... Nvidia is a AI company now they no longer care about the low-margin gaming sectore.

                    they give their gaming gpu tech to Mediatek because they know the profits in this sector are to low

                    they can make 1000times more money in the AI/CUDA field
                    all generally valid points.

                    I would guess your skepticism comes from not trying/seen PSVR2 yet, or had a VR experience/Raytracing on an RTX4070 or above.

                    It isnt that nvidia abandoned that field in favour of AI, just that it has taken more time to mature (actually less because the AI stuff dates back to like 2003, but it was all secret/NDA'd back then).

                    It is entirely possible valve/nvidia still aren't ready to bring rtx4070 gaming perf to a cheap mass market consumer headset, but I would be quite surprised if they aren't and don't very soon. Developers are absolutely desperate for it.

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                    • Originally posted by mSparks View Post
                      all generally valid points.
                      I would guess your skepticism comes from not trying/seen PSVR2 yet, or had a VR experience/Raytracing on an RTX4070 or above.
                      It isnt that nvidia abandoned that field in favour of AI, just that it has taken more time to mature (actually less because the AI stuff dates back to like 2003, but it was all secret/NDA'd back then).
                      It is entirely possible valve/nvidia still aren't ready to bring rtx4070 gaming perf to a cheap mass market consumer headset, but I would be quite surprised if they aren't and don't very soon. Developers are absolutely desperate for it.
                      to me it looks like Nvidia-blackwell/5000 series is really in favor of VR this time and will be not as good on non-VR tasks... the reason for this is they did jump from monolitic design to a 2 chiplet design. in VR they then can render the left eye on one chiplet and the right eye on the other chiplet.

                      but i really don't see the case that they can bring this 600-700watt monster in a steam deck...

                      "It is entirely possible valve/nvidia still aren't ready to bring rtx4070 gaming perf to a cheap mass market"

                      I am pretty sure the next steam deck still will not have focus on raytracing or VR...

                      keep in mind AMD Strix Halo is only RDNA3+ and will not have the new RDNA4 raytracing engine.

                      the ne RDNA4 part will land in the new Playstation6... but i am pretty sure the playstation6 will not outperform a rtx4070... mainly because it is a SOC... with maybe 32gb GDDR6 with 20Gbps on a 256bit ram channel...means 640GB/​s with a TDP of more than 260watt... what is already better than a 7900GRE...

                      this means not even the playstation 6 will give us rtx4070 gaming perf


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