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SDL Developers Weigh Reverting Wayland Over X11 For SDL 3.0

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  • #81
    Originally posted by anda_skoa View Post

    Aren't tray icons/menus already handled via D-Bus and thus independent of whether the desktop session is on X11 or Wayland?

    Since like ages ago?
    Nope, you can't embed sliders into them. They've changed/broken a lot of stuff. I tried to use dbusmenu to create a brightness control app. I can embed menuitems but not a slider widget into the gtkmenu. If you look it up, other people have tried and are getting the same. There's no plan to fix it atm.

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    • #82
      Originally posted by dpeterc View Post

      I develop X11 based application which defines its own icon based on its contents.
      When users run several instances of my application, they can quickly recognize which instance they want to switch to, by looking at the icon on system tray.
      On Wayland, I can't even set my own application icon, much less change it on the fly.
      This is possible on all other desktop GUI systems, from Windows to Mac.

      Now please explain to me how all the other systems were designed by idiots, and Wayland has been well thought out.
      I was able to set a tray icon in gtk3, but I had to specify the full path to the images. You can't just specify a folder in relation to the executable. Happy to send through code if you want an example.

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      • #83
        Originally posted by S.Pam View Post

        My gripe with Wayland replacing X11 is that Wayland wasn't , or isn't, a complete solution even theoretically. We're getting there, but it has taken a long, long time. Had "someone" actually planned a complete ecosystem instead of having small islands of software, we would have had a much easier transition.

        According to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Window_System the X11 protocol was finalised 1987, three years after initial release.
        ​​​​​​Wayland had its initial release 15 years ago, and its ecosystem is still not feature complete, comparatively.
        ​​
        The comparison doesn't make sense.
        In 1987 we had no OpenGL, Vulkan, TTF-Fonts, HiDPI, HDR, touch devices...but we had a DEC, Unix, Bitmap-Fonts.

        Wayland - accompanied by XWayland - on average performs better for most users than X11. Backwards compatibility is important. While we see already experimental modes for GNOME which avoid loading XWayland (reduce memory usage and better safety). And maybe XWayland will become an optional package in some years.

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        • #84
          Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post
          Xorg trolls, do not celebrate yet.... Issues like this are GOOD, because they lead to the implementation of new protocols to solve them.... Eventually Wayland will be a rock solid default for SDL 3.0 . No matter how much you spread FUD and troll against Wayland, Xorg is dead. Deal with it.
          That's some serious hard cope.

          Weren't you Wayland trash trolls the ones who said it works perfectly fine and there's absolutely no issues with it compared to Xorg? That's present tense dummy, not future tense.

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          • #85
            I did some basic tests with and without gamescope and HDR after updating to Fedora 40 Beta and I see frametime fluctuations whenever gamescope is used. I'm wondering if this is related to the issues mentioned by Joshua Ashton.

            Proton game @ XWayland @ Wayland GNOME => flat steady frametime
            Proton game @ gamescope @ Wayland GNOME => some frametime fluctuations
            Proton game @ XWayland @ Wayland KDE HDR=off => flat steady frametime
            ​Proton game @ gamescope VK_HDR_layer=off @ Wayland KDE HDR=on => some frametime fluctuations
            ​​Proton game @ gamescope VK_HDR_layer=on @ Wayland KDE HDR=on => amplified frametime fluctuations

            I'm wondering if the amplified frametime fluctuations are caused by doing some shader tonemapping by kwin or gamescope. Or maybe I set it up incorrectly somehow.

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            • #86
              Originally posted by hf_139 View Post
              Maybe in another 15 years. The wayland protocol is old, deprecated and has fundamental flaws.

              If we are lucky, we will get a modern replacement before wayland becomes stable, so users can skip wayland alltogether and go for whatever is next.
              Wayland is like Windows Vista and X11 is like Windows XP. I mean it even starts with X in the name.

              Arcan will be like Windows 7.

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              • #87
                Originally posted by dpeterc View Post
                Now please explain to me how all the other systems were designed by idiots, and Wayland has been well thought out.
                Remember 'famous' Windows icons bug or X11 key logger? Yep, definitely designed by idiots.

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                • #88
                  Originally posted by Britoid View Post
                  Any alternative to Wayland would end up having the same problems so I'm not quite sure what people are dragging on about.

                  Is it bad that Wayland development has hurt its real world usage? Yes.
                  Is it the fault of the protocol itself, no.

                  This is 100% a people caused problem, Wayland protocol proposals are filled with drama and arguments, including people telling Valve developers their needs are wrong (cause you know, Valve obviously has no idea how games should work).

                  Wayland is needed because it aligns to how graphics hardware works that allows "modern features", the stubbornness over protocol additions have caused this.
                  WTF are you talking about? Of course it's a people caused problem. And the people happen to be the shitty maintainers/Wayland protocol devs, which means it's a lost cause.

                  Because they know better than everyone else what their apps need. That's their pathetic attitude that got it in this state in the first place.

                  A protocol has no will. When you blame it, you're obviously blaming the ones who designed it.

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                  • #89
                    Originally posted by Volta View Post
                    How does X11 from 1987 compares to current X11? It's not even remotely comparable. How many workarounds for broken or outdated designs are there? X11 was in development for more than thirty years and it's still not complete. It won't ever be.
                    X11 from 1987 was still the best at the time, so your point?

                    You can't just start a new project with 1987-level software today and expect same treatment from users. People have better expectations and that's totally normal. Sorry you find it unfair, but times change.

                    Why the fuck are you excusing/comparing Wayland with 1987? We're in 2024.

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                    • #90
                      Originally posted by Volta View Post

                      Remember 'famous' Windows icons bug or X11 key logger? Yep, definitely designed by idiots.
                      Skill issue. Git gud.

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