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Mesa 23.3 Lands Optional Support For Allowing Game Tearing On Wayland

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  • #21
    Originally posted by ayumu View Post
    The one promise of Wayland to never show imperfect frames... broken.

    They could have focused their efforts into making triple buffering work really well, as well as dynamic refresh such as freesync.

    But no, they instead settle for the usual mediocrity.
    Triple buffering? That massively increases input lag.

    God damn console peasants.

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    • #22
      Originally posted by geearf View Post
      What makes no tearing a dumb mistake? Isn't better quality a good thing? Or does it potentially make a game unplayable when it could be playable with tearing?
      Massively increases input lag. Some people want low reaction times you know, because we aren't all grannies playing turn-based games.

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      • #23
        Originally posted by ayumu View Post
        The one promise of Wayland to never show imperfect frames... broken.
        I expected this moronic comment, I wasn't disappoint. Yes, despite the fact the article makes sure to clarify it's an optional mode for apps running on XWayland.

        There is a difference between disabling VSync on purpose to get extra FPS in some games and not having consistent VSync support (which was highly embarrassing for Desktop Linux, considering even Windows 95 had it).
        Last edited by kurkosdr; 12 September 2023, 10:43 AM.

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        • #24
          Originally posted by RealNC View Post
          Microsoft did the same with their new (well, by now not very new) DX12 presentation model. Always perfect frames. Then game devs made them realize what a dumb mistake that was and introduced a tearing mode later on. The way it works now on Windows is that the application cannot override user preference. If the user wants every frame to be synced, they force it in the driver control panel. The game is unable to tear. If the user wants to game to control whether or not it tears, they set the option to "application preference." It's not rocket science.
          Not all gamers, just the people who want to get every last FPS out of their GPUs. Some of us prefer to dial down the graphics settings a bit than have unsightly half-frames overlayed on top of other frames (which takes away all the prettiness of the graphics). Maybe if you play competitively you need vsync off, and only if you have a low-spec system, which is a rare case.

          And the concept of turning off vsync itself is becoming obsolete due to the prevalence of variable-refresh rate. Of course X apps don't do VRR, so they might need still need to disable vsync.
          Last edited by kurkosdr; 12 September 2023, 10:44 AM.

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          • #25
            Originally posted by bple2137 View Post

            That really depends on a use-case. If you watch video, edit your spreadsheets or scroll through web pages you probably don't want to see any tearing and it's reasonable to drop frames that didn't make it for the vblank cycle. With games it's a little different, because waiting for vblank introduces latency. Not every gamer is e-sport player and in fact most of the time people keep vsync enabled to match with the refresh rate, but it's about the choice. If your hardware cannot push 60fps and you're on 60Hz screen, the choice is between tearing and stutter. It's perfectly fine unless you, as user, can decide for one option or another on compositor level. Forcing something that's effectively a global v-sync wasn't ever a good idea for that particular use, but it's great for most things.

            Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post

            The problem with looking at it like that is that "better quality" is subjective. To one person it means perfect frames and to another person it's faster frames. While most people will want perfect frames that look nice, faster frames can be good for things like testing, benchmarking, competitive gaming, and lower input latency.

            Tearing and unplayable also depends on your hardware and in-game settings. If you're able to get greater than 60 FPS, you can turn off vsync and enable tearing to get lower input latency. If you're unable to get a steady 60 FPS, like it dips down to 45-50 in that one part of the level but the rest of the time it's normally fine, sometimes you don't want to be hit with 33ms of lag when sub-60 v sync occurs, because that is noticeable, turning on tearing is an alternative to latency/FPS jumping between 33ms/30FPS and 16ms/60FPS.
            ​Thanks guys, I appreciate the explanation!

            Originally posted by Weasel View Post
            Some people want low reaction times you know, because we aren't all grannies playing turn-based games.
            That comment was really not needed...

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            • #26
              Originally posted by Weasel View Post
              Massively increases input lag. Some people want low reaction times you know, because we aren't all grannies playing turn-based games.
              Thanks to Nvidia for sponsoring this video!For more information on how high frames and refresh rate help in competitive gaming visit https://www.nvidia.com/e...


              Even for FPS the answer is not as black and white. Lot of the difference is input lag people overcome with the training effect even in FPS games. Yes there is disadvantage to increased input lag but not as much as one would first presume.

              Something to remember. "photosensitive epilepsy" can be triggered by screen tearing. Ok this is the worst form where you motor system goes stupid. But there is minor form where person loses focus. A person playing FPS games can be better off with perfect frames and slightly higher input lag if the cause of the flicker from the tears is causing them to lose their training effect due to lose of focus due to the minor form of photosensitive.

              Weasel so for some people having tearing and getting information sooner is good but for others is bad and this is for FPS players. This is why it would be good if this is a switch where you can choose between perfect frames and frames with tearing in FPS games. Use what ever mode suits you the best not all humans are the same.

              There has been a problem with FPS games of attempting todo one size fits all.

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              • #27
                Originally posted by kurkosdr View Post
                Not all gamers, just the people who want to get every last FPS out of their GPUs. Some of us prefer to dial down the graphics settings a bit than have unsightly half-frames overlayed on top of other frames (which takes away all the prettiness of the graphics). Maybe if you play competitively you need vsync off, and only if you have a low-spec system, which is a rare case.
                This is where things get more complex. Some of your pro FPS games want tear free output. Because they know for them the tearing or flicker results in a lower focus in them that results in lower performance because their training is no long as useful.

                Not all competitive players in fact play with vsync off.
                https://afkgaming.com/csgo/news/4992...nc-on-for-csgo some don't notice they have it turned on. Some have it turned on because they perform better with vsync on due the the medical problems of photosensitive.

                So to play competitively you don't need vsync off. The reality here is by turning vsync off you can in fact make your performance worse. Higher odds is that vsync off will increase your FPS style game performance but there is still the low odds chance you have screwed you means to train for better performance due to a photosensitive issue so making your gaming performance worse.

                kurkosdr sometime people who don't like tearing on screen when you test them they have a hidden photosensitive so brain is I don't like that is horrible but reason is not that is does not look good. Basically this is case that if you don't like tearing you need to be careful in-case there is something else there. The idea that vsync off and tearing equals better performance not true for all humans.

                This is the one size fits all problem. Vsync off/screen tearing is the one size shoe it does not fit everyone.

                Yes the worse photosensitive issue you could have triggered epilepsy were you go from being able to play game to bashing into things as your body throws a fit. So worst fitting shoe on earth.
                Last edited by oiaohm; 12 September 2023, 11:52 PM.

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by Weasel View Post
                  Massively increases input lag. Some people want low reaction times you know, because we aren't all grannies playing turn-based games.
                  I've always found the touted latency jump from vsync to be over-rated, I mean personally I'll notice it...for about half an hour after which my brain has subconsciously started compensating for it and I don't notice it any more because like most humans brains, my brains are hard-wired to automatically compensate or tune out most things our senses pick up that are consistently there. This is the same mental wiring that ensures most humans can tune out the noise of a fan that's been on for long enough, can look directly at something located in an area they're familiar with yet fail to see it, more often than not stop directly feeling the clothing/glasses and the like on their bodies all day unless made aware of it or struggle to feel/hear their own heartbeat unless they're trying or it's beating differently to normal/not at all among many other examples.

                  Heck, if I've got a PC that's capable of playing whatever fast-paced game at or near the monitors refresh rate then I'll straight up play better with vsync on than off if there's still a big enough difference between my average and minimum framerates when it's unlocked because of this fact. (ie. My brain can start to compensate for extremely low latency during the low-action periods where the CPU/GPU aren't doing much, but when the action picks back up and latency increases again my brain then has to recompensate before I'm playing at 100%...)

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                  • #29
                    Originally posted by Democrab View Post
                    I've always found the touted latency jump from vsync to be over-rated, I mean personally I'll notice it...for about half an hour after which my brain has subconsciously started compensating for it and I don't notice it any more because like most humans brains, my brains are hard-wired to automatically compensate or tune out most things our senses pick up that are consistently there. )
                    Not all humans are the same in this regard. Some people seeing broken frames are harder for their brain to process so they compensating skill reduces with tearing and the like. Others do gain faster response with the broken frames. It all comes down to what a person brain is good at filtering out and compensating for it would be very boring world if all our brains had exactly the same functionality.

                    Some people vsync/tear free is better than no vsync and tearing and the reverse is also true for some people as well.

                    One size does not fit all here. People pushing for tearing to be allowed always argue that this group people must have this to do what they need of course fail to notice is only a subset of that group that need tearing and a subset of that group tearing harms their play.

                    You could be playing better with vsync on because you are one of the people who brain has hard time when you are seeing broken frames. Yes this can show up as being able to play longer before mental exhaustion because you brain is doing less work when it does not have to deal with broken frames.

                    Heartbeat example is kind of right. If you ask a person how hard are they running their brain doing a task there is no why they can answer it. There were some MRI studies with games and the like with teared vs no teared frames monitoring brain activity. Some people have higher brain activity when shown teared frames others have no difference. if you are in the camp that you have higher brain activity to teared frames you reflex speed is reduced as well when you have teared frames.

                    The vsync is off/tearing is always better for fast paced games is a myth that not backed by medical science. Medical science is clear is better for some people worse for others the important one is what one is you. Yes totally like putting on the wrong sized shoe then wondering why you are having problems.

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                    • #30
                      Originally posted by Weasel View Post
                      Some people want low reaction times you know, because we aren't all grannies playing turn-based games.
                      If you want superior response times, play on a TN monitor.

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