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Mesa 23.3 Lands Optional Support For Allowing Game Tearing On Wayland

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  • mdedetrich
    replied
    Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post

    The problem with looking at it like that is that "better quality" is subjective. To one person it means perfect frames and to another person it's faster frames. While most people will want perfect frames that look nice, faster frames can be good for things like testing, benchmarking, competitive gaming, and lower input latency.

    Tearing and unplayable also depends on your hardware and in-game settings. If you're able to get greater than 60 FPS, you can turn off vsync and enable tearing to get lower input latency. If you're unable to get a steady 60 FPS, like it dips down to 45-50 in that one part of the level but the rest of the time it's normally fine, sometimes you don't want to be hit with 33ms of lag when sub-60 v sync occurs, because that is noticeable, turning on tearing is an alternative to latency/FPS jumping between 33ms/30FPS and 16ms/60FPS.
    This is the way.

    If you can push/handle a lot of frames then having tearing is fine because you will almost never notice it due to how many frames you will be exposed to and with the tearing comes lower input lag (which for gaming based on reaction times is always good).

    Otherwise if you can't really hit 60 fps then creating perfect frames may make sense because then you can really notice the tearing.
    Last edited by mdedetrich; 14 September 2023, 11:31 AM.

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  • Weasel
    replied
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    Weasel you are still ignoring the human brain.

    There are different flicker caused problems that can come about from screen tearing. Like Flicker vertigo your fine motor control over the mouse can be gone.

    This is the problem the delay on image on screen can be less than the effect the tearing/flicking is causing to a person human brain.

    The reality is some people with vsync on/tear free can aim mouse faster to target on screen than when they have vsync off/tearing on all due to having minor flicker vertigo that takes away their motor control to drive the mouse. This is also nicely intermittent on the person when the broken frames are not happening all the time.

    Weasel its one of those catches just because you can see the image sooner does not equal that your motor control section of your brain will be in any state to respond to it.

    Yes flicker vertigo problem for some players is highly frustrating because they can see the target but then cannot do anything about it and without proper diagnostics normally don't put 2 and 2 together. Some notice they are better with vsync on but they don't work out its vertigo .

    Weasel basically the requirements is player + computer. The way the players brain is wired is a factor if tearing is advantage or not.

    Weasel if you don't have one of the flicker triggered conditions screen tearing is advantage. If you have one of the flicker triggered conditions screen tearing is a mega disadvantage. Yes the Flicker_vertigo you are not talking 20 ms crippled response you are talking up to 500ms crippled response or more.

    This is the catch the brain triggered issues from flicker make the latency caused by being tear free being absolutely nothing. There are professional first person players who have Flicker_vertigo triggered by tearing we are talking players in the top 100 in the world in their games.
    I was talking about latency. You will be impacted by it, no matter if you can react to 20ms or not, because it adds up to an already high reaction time from you.

    Now, if you get sick from flickering that's a completely separate topic. It still decreases latency, lol. You just get sick while watching it, so probably not worth the tradeoff.

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  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by Weasel View Post
    Reaction times are dependent on many factors. But adding delay to the image on screen does not help. This is measurable with high speed cameras.

    It's not about noticing 20ms or not, it's about adding it up. They all add up.
    Weasel you are still ignoring the human brain.

    There are different flicker caused problems that can come about from screen tearing. Like Flicker vertigo your fine motor control over the mouse can be gone.

    This is the problem the delay on image on screen can be less than the effect the tearing/flicking is causing to a person human brain.

    The reality is some people with vsync on/tear free can aim mouse faster to target on screen than when they have vsync off/tearing on all due to having minor flicker vertigo that takes away their motor control to drive the mouse. This is also nicely intermittent on the person when the broken frames are not happening all the time.

    Weasel its one of those catches just because you can see the image sooner does not equal that your motor control section of your brain will be in any state to respond to it.

    Yes flicker vertigo problem for some players is highly frustrating because they can see the target but then cannot do anything about it and without proper diagnostics normally don't put 2 and 2 together. Some notice they are better with vsync on but they don't work out its vertigo .

    Weasel basically the requirements is player + computer. The way the players brain is wired is a factor if tearing is advantage or not.

    Weasel if you don't have one of the flicker triggered conditions screen tearing is advantage. If you have one of the flicker triggered conditions screen tearing is a mega disadvantage. Yes the Flicker_vertigo you are not talking 20 ms crippled response you are talking up to 500ms crippled response or more.

    This is the catch the brain triggered issues from flicker make the latency caused by being tear free being absolutely nothing. There are professional first person players who have Flicker_vertigo triggered by tearing we are talking players in the top 100 in the world in their games.

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  • Weasel
    replied
    Originally posted by Democrab View Post
    I've always found the touted latency jump from vsync to be over-rated, I mean personally I'll notice it...for about half an hour after which my brain has subconsciously started compensating for it and I don't notice it any more because like most humans brains, my brains are hard-wired to automatically compensate or tune out most things our senses pick up that are consistently there. This is the same mental wiring that ensures most humans can tune out the noise of a fan that's been on for long enough, can look directly at something located in an area they're familiar with yet fail to see it, more often than not stop directly feeling the clothing/glasses and the like on their bodies all day unless made aware of it or struggle to feel/hear their own heartbeat unless they're trying or it's beating differently to normal/not at all among many other examples.

    Heck, if I've got a PC that's capable of playing whatever fast-paced game at or near the monitors refresh rate then I'll straight up play better with vsync on than off if there's still a big enough difference between my average and minimum framerates when it's unlocked because of this fact. (ie. My brain can start to compensate for extremely low latency during the low-action periods where the CPU/GPU aren't doing much, but when the action picks back up and latency increases again my brain then has to recompensate before I'm playing at 100%...)
    Reaction times are dependent on many factors. But adding delay to the image on screen does not help. This is measurable with high speed cameras.

    It's not about noticing 20ms or not, it's about adding it up. They all add up.

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  • Rovano
    replied
    Originally posted by Sonadow View Post

    If you want superior response times, play on a TN monitor.
    I play CS Go on an old IPS monitor and we are still able to compete with young players. But yes. I'm looking forward to the newer monitor. :-) One thing is being forgotten here. There are several types of vsync.


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  • Sonadow
    replied
    Originally posted by Weasel View Post
    Some people want low reaction times you know, because we aren't all grannies playing turn-based games.
    If you want superior response times, play on a TN monitor.

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  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by Democrab View Post
    I've always found the touted latency jump from vsync to be over-rated, I mean personally I'll notice it...for about half an hour after which my brain has subconsciously started compensating for it and I don't notice it any more because like most humans brains, my brains are hard-wired to automatically compensate or tune out most things our senses pick up that are consistently there. )
    Not all humans are the same in this regard. Some people seeing broken frames are harder for their brain to process so they compensating skill reduces with tearing and the like. Others do gain faster response with the broken frames. It all comes down to what a person brain is good at filtering out and compensating for it would be very boring world if all our brains had exactly the same functionality.

    Some people vsync/tear free is better than no vsync and tearing and the reverse is also true for some people as well.

    One size does not fit all here. People pushing for tearing to be allowed always argue that this group people must have this to do what they need of course fail to notice is only a subset of that group that need tearing and a subset of that group tearing harms their play.

    You could be playing better with vsync on because you are one of the people who brain has hard time when you are seeing broken frames. Yes this can show up as being able to play longer before mental exhaustion because you brain is doing less work when it does not have to deal with broken frames.

    Heartbeat example is kind of right. If you ask a person how hard are they running their brain doing a task there is no why they can answer it. There were some MRI studies with games and the like with teared vs no teared frames monitoring brain activity. Some people have higher brain activity when shown teared frames others have no difference. if you are in the camp that you have higher brain activity to teared frames you reflex speed is reduced as well when you have teared frames.

    The vsync is off/tearing is always better for fast paced games is a myth that not backed by medical science. Medical science is clear is better for some people worse for others the important one is what one is you. Yes totally like putting on the wrong sized shoe then wondering why you are having problems.

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  • Democrab
    replied
    Originally posted by Weasel View Post
    Massively increases input lag. Some people want low reaction times you know, because we aren't all grannies playing turn-based games.
    I've always found the touted latency jump from vsync to be over-rated, I mean personally I'll notice it...for about half an hour after which my brain has subconsciously started compensating for it and I don't notice it any more because like most humans brains, my brains are hard-wired to automatically compensate or tune out most things our senses pick up that are consistently there. This is the same mental wiring that ensures most humans can tune out the noise of a fan that's been on for long enough, can look directly at something located in an area they're familiar with yet fail to see it, more often than not stop directly feeling the clothing/glasses and the like on their bodies all day unless made aware of it or struggle to feel/hear their own heartbeat unless they're trying or it's beating differently to normal/not at all among many other examples.

    Heck, if I've got a PC that's capable of playing whatever fast-paced game at or near the monitors refresh rate then I'll straight up play better with vsync on than off if there's still a big enough difference between my average and minimum framerates when it's unlocked because of this fact. (ie. My brain can start to compensate for extremely low latency during the low-action periods where the CPU/GPU aren't doing much, but when the action picks back up and latency increases again my brain then has to recompensate before I'm playing at 100%...)

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  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by kurkosdr View Post
    Not all gamers, just the people who want to get every last FPS out of their GPUs. Some of us prefer to dial down the graphics settings a bit than have unsightly half-frames overlayed on top of other frames (which takes away all the prettiness of the graphics). Maybe if you play competitively you need vsync off, and only if you have a low-spec system, which is a rare case.
    This is where things get more complex. Some of your pro FPS games want tear free output. Because they know for them the tearing or flicker results in a lower focus in them that results in lower performance because their training is no long as useful.

    Not all competitive players in fact play with vsync off.
    https://afkgaming.com/csgo/news/4992...nc-on-for-csgo some don't notice they have it turned on. Some have it turned on because they perform better with vsync on due the the medical problems of photosensitive.

    So to play competitively you don't need vsync off. The reality here is by turning vsync off you can in fact make your performance worse. Higher odds is that vsync off will increase your FPS style game performance but there is still the low odds chance you have screwed you means to train for better performance due to a photosensitive issue so making your gaming performance worse.

    kurkosdr sometime people who don't like tearing on screen when you test them they have a hidden photosensitive so brain is I don't like that is horrible but reason is not that is does not look good. Basically this is case that if you don't like tearing you need to be careful in-case there is something else there. The idea that vsync off and tearing equals better performance not true for all humans.

    This is the one size fits all problem. Vsync off/screen tearing is the one size shoe it does not fit everyone.

    Yes the worse photosensitive issue you could have triggered epilepsy were you go from being able to play game to bashing into things as your body throws a fit. So worst fitting shoe on earth.
    Last edited by oiaohm; 12 September 2023, 11:52 PM.

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  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by Weasel View Post
    Massively increases input lag. Some people want low reaction times you know, because we aren't all grannies playing turn-based games.
    Thanks to Nvidia for sponsoring this video!For more information on how high frames and refresh rate help in competitive gaming visit https://www.nvidia.com/e...


    Even for FPS the answer is not as black and white. Lot of the difference is input lag people overcome with the training effect even in FPS games. Yes there is disadvantage to increased input lag but not as much as one would first presume.

    Something to remember. "photosensitive epilepsy" can be triggered by screen tearing. Ok this is the worst form where you motor system goes stupid. But there is minor form where person loses focus. A person playing FPS games can be better off with perfect frames and slightly higher input lag if the cause of the flicker from the tears is causing them to lose their training effect due to lose of focus due to the minor form of photosensitive.

    Weasel so for some people having tearing and getting information sooner is good but for others is bad and this is for FPS players. This is why it would be good if this is a switch where you can choose between perfect frames and frames with tearing in FPS games. Use what ever mode suits you the best not all humans are the same.

    There has been a problem with FPS games of attempting todo one size fits all.

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