X.Org vs. Wayland Linux Gaming Performance For NVIDIA GeForce + AMD Radeon In Early 2023

[Weasel]

wait until you learn about android. Like they ask location, camera, and pretty much any sensor on phone for every apps you're using. Like that's a fucking garbage operating system. Like what? They afraid Google? Three letters agents? Zucc? Like they think those people would spy on you? And sell your data without your consent? Like come on, we have all the laws protecting us, otherwise we would living in a cave right now. That's just delusional people worrying over nothing.

idk anyone who installed Android on their desktop PC, so I guess it's a garbage OS, yes.

That said, you literally mentioned it asks for your permissions so kinda your fault there buddy.

Nothing wrong with sandboxing apps that you want sandboxed (e.g. browser). Just don't fucking assume every app is malware, especially in the fucking protocol (i.e. UNFIXABLE). Most apps I use I trust for a reason. If you don't, sounds like a you problem.

[mirmirmir]

Wayland is the perfect example of how you can't polish a turd if it's rotten at the roots and shit by design. So at least it's good historical example of what not to do.

It doesn't bring security, it brings paranoia. Security would mean all apps under same privilege/user (that can access each other's files) can spy on each other's windows, or even the desktop if it's a trusted user. That's functionality people need.

X11 has low security, Windows has proper security, and Wayland is a piece of paranoid junk that's akin to cutting off your internet connection for "security purposes".

wait until you learn about android. Like they ask location, camera, and pretty much any sensor on phone for every apps you're using. Like that's a fucking garbage operating system. Like what? They afraid Google? Three letters agents? Zucc? Like they think those people would spy on you? And sell your data without your consent? Like come on, we have all the laws protecting us, otherwise we would living in a cave right now. That's just delusional people worrying over nothing.

[ryao]

Such titles doesn't exist. Currently DXVK and Wine are made assumping Xorg or Xwayland is used. Few native ports have to account that clients only using X server exist so they also don't support Wayland. In close future it is not going to change anytime soon.

DXVK works unmodified on Windows where there is no X11 server? How does it assume that the X11 server is used? It knows nothing about it.

[deusexmachina]

If Wayland performance is so bad, what is the reason for its existence?

Wayland has given us desktop users so many problems, so many bugs, so many disasters. What is it all good for? What does Wayland offer that is worth the enormous cost for end users who see their systems not boot, have error messages, lower performance, and other terrible effects. We are now so many years later that most distro's have switched or are in the process of switching, but i see no clear benefits for ordinary users. If they would know that some games / applications drop more than half in performance, what would be the reason to use it? What was wrong with X.org in the first place? Its complicated design may lower performance in theory i guess, but with Wayland having so many years of development it still struggles against X.org in some cases big time. The performance is unacceptable for some titles.

It seems to me perhaps a tiny minority is happy with Wayland and others would have benefited more from a stable and working X.org system?

And is that perhaps the real reason, license stuff? X.org is not GPL, is that the real issue? Linux devs feeling offended that something so vital is not GPL? I've seen the hostility toward ZFS and BSD, so i guess it is possible license stuff is part of the motivation. I lack the knowledge to form a definitive opinion on this subject, but from my point of view Linux desktop is still a hit and miss. Boot up an old Windows and it just works. Boot up a Linux LTS release and even the live CD/USB would show so many errors in the logs. And that is in the most vanilla / pristine state possible before even having it installed! Linux desktop simply has not achieved the stability of Windows yet. The devs seem focused on new toys, instead of getting the existing toys to work and have all the bugs ironed out.

Some examples: vanilla installation of ubuntu cannot play videos properly because of missing Vertical Sync - why? Why is vsync not the default, why do not things just work as they should work? Who wants vsync off when watching movies? Tell me! No one wants that right?! So why is it the default then? The 150% scaling doesn't work properly it works 100% and 200% but fractional scaling is still a mess. Hardware video acceleration often does not work for Firefox and VLC media player. All very important issues to be resolved for ordinary users, in 2023! I expected them fixed in 2000 already - Windows did?!

Imagine if these modern "software engineers" built bridges. They would never be feature complete and they'd have huge round abouts on them that you cannot exit until some security issue with the passenger or car is resolved. "Feature complete" does not exist in their vocabulary. Anyone using Ubuntu deserves a bad experience; they chose their engineering tools and designs based on peer pressure or fads or bribes. Software is made by people, if it has issues, then those issues were in the people first. Debian, Arch, and Mint can do everything better than Ubuntu - depending upon your needs. Yet Ubuntu is pushed in the "FOSS media" at every opportunity.

[HellToupee]

I'm currently playing Transport Fever 2, which uses SDL2, on Wayland.

Another free game that uses SDL2 works on wayland native and can tax the GPU is Beyond all Reason an RTS bit like total annihilation.

[Berniyh]

Wayland is overall smoother than xorg even on Nvidia when moving around windows or launching apps. Not when playing games. If anything I’d seen more reports of Wayland stuttering in games than Xorg. I haven’t had any issues with Nvidia multi monitor setups on Windows or Linux.

Wayland compositors enforce vsync, which is a design decision and it's not always for the best. They're coming up with a protocol now that should tell the compositor to suspend vsync when a game is running, but afaik it's not implemented yet.
While vsync for typical desktop usage usually is appealing, when running games it can lead to lag and possibly stuttering. That is unless your display and GPU support freesync (properly) which solves the problem even without the new protocol.

[WannaBeOCer]

I have my pick of GPU's whether it be NV or AMD. I won't touch NV on Linux or Windows for most the part - main reason? My pc becomes very sluggish with > 1 monitor if I'm doing heavy workloads. NV doesn't appear to multitask very well. EG I can game on Windows or Linux while rendering a video in Davinci (with SW encoding - HW encode quality sucks) and I will barely even notice the pc is busy. With an NV card just moving my mouse and switching between destkops / activities is sluggish when doing stuff in the background. Just dragging windows between two screens skips frames without load.

So I don't really care if NV is double the speed if it means I can't use my pc - nicely - while it chugs away. I tested this with NV 1050/60/2080/3080ti all vs AMD 5450/RX580/5700XT so it's not a "you need a more powerful gpu" argument it appears to be architecture. The 5450 gave a smoother experience than the 3080 in desktop use esp with multi mons. FWIW I sell way more NV's than AMD but sadly FPS sells cards not overall experience. Thats why I feel this Xorg vs Wayland benchmark is a bit pointless in the real world.

In the same way ppl keep talking about how Wayland is "smoother" that's the same experience I get with an AMD gpu. I couldn't care less if Xorg got 200fps and Wayland 100fps. It feels way better for gaming, though I do sign out of X11 after work and use Wayland for gaming as Wayland doesn't support all my apps. Where I do miss NV is for it's AI in Davinci.

Wayland is overall smoother than xorg even on Nvidia when moving around windows or launching apps. Not when playing games. If anything I’d seen more reports of Wayland stuttering in games than Xorg. I haven’t had any issues with Nvidia multi monitor setups on Windows or Linux.

I don’t use my GPU for video editing but training models, depending on how much VRAM I use the system could get sluggish. When I was using my Radeon VII I experienced the same behavior. This could also be a scheduler issue. On Windows enable Hardware Accelerated scheduling.

Nvidia’s NVENC has had better quality for quite some time. It wasn’t until mid last year AMD’s AMF encoder looked as decent.

[Berniyh]

NSA will never buy enough workstations to justify IBM spending another 15 years getting all the kinks worked out of Wayland.

Funny you say that. Because it took more than 20 years to get all the kinks worked out of X11. Actually I'd say it's still not done (and possibly never will), it's more like +36 years?

[qarium]

NSA will never buy enough workstations to justify IBM spending another 15 years getting all the kinks worked out of Wayland.

do you think the german BSI or BND or ZITiS or any other agency does buy something different ? they all buy from IBM/Redhat

[andyprough]

Redhat/IBM, Canonical, SuSE don't give a crap about selling workstations to governments - all they care about is selling the cloudy bits, that's where the money is.

thats means the NSA is not a government organisation anymore ?... and be sure the NSA does not run windows 95 or windows XP

and of course these secret government contracts make explicit use of security clauses...

NSA will never buy enough workstations to justify IBM spending another 15 years getting all the kinks worked out of Wayland.