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Steam For Linux In July Shows A 1.23% Marketshare, AMD CPUs Now More Common Than Intel On Linux

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  • #61
    Originally posted by qarium View Post

    there are 2 reasons why Valve will do it: first the ARM marketshare (Smart-TV/Smartphones/car-computer and other stuff) is already to big to ignore it. remember i do not talk about desktop marketshare or notebook marketshare. you can ignore ARM on desktop and notebook but if you just count chip-sells no matter what is the endproduct...
    Most of those devices aren't powerful enough to run AAA games. Old games or Indie games, maybe. Even then, nobody is going to let Valve install Steam and lose a cut of the profits from their own store. These are walled gardens for a reason, and that reason is to profit from the sale of apps through their store.
    second reason is: mobile future steam deck could get better battery life if they go with ARM instead of x86...
    o and yes i know you disagree on this point. but who cares.
    I won't disagree but that really depends on who's making the ARM chip. Nvidia, sure because Nvidia knows how to make a GPU. Rockchip with Mali graphics is a no. Apple without Vulkan is a no. Not to forget you still need to emulate x86 because the overwhelming vast majority of games are running x86.
    if you are from a rich country it does not sound good but worldwide it is different for many poor countries.

    i would never thought to think of any good of any ARM device but the newest Rockchip SOCs are really really good and do even have features apple M1/M2 does not have like AV1 encode and decode..

    right now rockchip is not as fast as apple m1/m2 but still a impressive development and much faster than raspberry pi 4..
    You can still buy cheap x86 machines to play games. A lot of people do this already. If you're from a really poor country then you're gaming on your smart phone. This is why the mobile market is so big because most people in the world are poor, and everyone does have a smart phone. iOS and Android are not going to pave the wave for ARM gaming. Like I said, Linux on x86 still has lots of problems.


    and why valve should not follow apple ?
    Apple dumped Nvidia due to the issues from the early 2010's where the Nvidia chips failed and left Apple as well as many other manufacturers to deal with those problems. Those manufacturers came back to Nvidia, but not Apple. It does nobody any good to limit themselves to one manufacturer as price gouging will occur. Intel has a history of being assholes.


    most of the games on steam are not like cyberpunk 2077 with 100GB and more instead they are small games like Valheim..
    If a developer of Indie game isn't porting then it's due to difficulty. Steam's advantage is that they make it easy to bring your game. Why you think Valve backed Vulkan?
    well you claimed WebAssembly+WebGPU is slow but there are many cases who it is faster and thats a fact.
    Show me a game doing this.
    you just don't get it intel sells 10nm cpus and apple already produce 4nm chips.

    in the moment intel will be on 3nm apple will be on 2nm or even 1nm node ...
    I'm telling you what's happening not what may happen. Intel bought the shit out of 3nm and by next year will have chips running 3nm. Apple's M series isn't on 4nm. The Apple M2 should be on 3nm but TSMC ran into problems and it was delayed. AMD will released Zen4 with RDNA3 on 5nm soon while next year their mobile parts will be on 4nm.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
      Most of those devices aren't powerful enough to run AAA games. Old games or Indie games, maybe. Even then, nobody is going to let Valve install Steam and lose a cut of the profits from their own store. These are walled gardens for a reason, and that reason is to profit from the sale of apps through their store.
      Valve makes a lot of money on non-AAA-Games... no need for AAA games to make money.
      you also just think these walled gardens stuff wrong.. why? simple because valve has their steam deck walled garden to.
      this means it is some kind of this for that deal valve allows them to have a store on steam deck and because of this they allow steam to have a steam store on their devices. not a big deal.

      Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
      I won't disagree but that really depends on who's making the ARM chip. Nvidia, sure because Nvidia knows how to make a GPU. Rockchip with Mali graphics is a no. Apple without Vulkan is a no. Not to forget you still need to emulate x86 because the overwhelming vast majority of games are running x86.
      thats all more flexible than you think... for example Rockchip can license RDNA3+,... also like the ACO compiler for AMD hardware valve could plain and simple just write a vulkan driver for apple hardware.
      it also looks like emulate x86 is no problem... yes you lose performance but if great market success brings new games compiled for ARM you could still win on battery time.

      Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
      You can still buy cheap x86 machines to play games. A lot of people do this already. If you're from a really poor country then you're gaming on your smart phone. This is why the mobile market is so big because most people in the world are poor, and everyone does have a smart phone. iOS and Android are not going to pave the wave for ARM gaming. Like I said, Linux on x86 still has lots of problems.
      but technically speaking these are all ARM cpu gamers... in their smartphones ;-)


      Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
      Apple dumped Nvidia due to the issues from the early 2010's where the Nvidia chips failed and left Apple as well as many other manufacturers to deal with those problems. Those manufacturers came back to Nvidia, but not Apple. It does nobody any good to limit themselves to one manufacturer as price gouging will occur. Intel has a history of being assholes.
      i do not see any reason to do business with assholes like intel or nvidia...

      Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
      If a developer of Indie game isn't porting then it's due to difficulty. Steam's advantage is that they make it easy to bring your game. Why you think Valve backed Vulkan?
      Show me a game doing this.
      I do not know any game yet who does it because it is still a new upcoming technology.

      Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
      I'm telling you what's happening not what may happen. Intel bought the shit out of 3nm and by next year will have chips running 3nm. Apple's M series isn't on 4nm. The Apple M2 should be on 3nm but TSMC ran into problems and it was delayed. AMD will released Zen4 with RDNA3 on 5nm soon while next year their mobile parts will be on 4nm.
      apple m2 is not on 4nm or 3nm right but M2max will be on 4nm

      intel was only able to buy any TSMC 3nm node capacity because apple instead did buy IBM based 2nm,,,

      you think intel will be able to be on a better node than apple but i think this is wrong. on the time intel will be on 3nm apple will be on 2nm...

      Phantom circuit Sequence Reducer Dyslexia

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      • #63
        Originally posted by qarium View Post

        Valve makes a lot of money on non-AAA-Games... no need for AAA games to make money.
        While I do like my Indie games like Hollow Knight and Undertale, I do play a lot of AAA games like Elden Ring and World of Warcraft. I really like my Elden Ring.
        you also just think these walled gardens stuff wrong.. why? simple because valve has their steam deck walled garden to.
        this means it is some kind of this for that deal valve allows them to have a store on steam deck and because of this they allow steam to have a steam store on their devices. not a big deal.
        I don't think you understand what a walled garden is. Nintendo Switch is a walled garden because Nintendo actively prevents people from modding their devices and installing whatever they want. Apple prevents people from side loading on their iOS devices. Android and Windows doesn't, including the Steam Deck. People have gotten Nintendo Switch games running on the Deck. I install Aurora and F-Droid and avoid installing gapps when I flash LineageOS. I like to do whatever I want with the devices I own. That is one of the core principals of Linux.


        thats all more flexible than you think... for example Rockchip can license RDNA3+,... also like the ACO compiler for AMD hardware valve could plain and simple just write a vulkan driver for apple hardware.
        Sure.
        it also looks like emulate x86 is no problem... yes you lose performance but if great market success brings new games compiled for ARM you could still win on battery time.
        That's the same idea behind proton. The only problem is who wants to spend money to basically become a marketing tool? BTW that's basically what Apple M series owners are. If you want to get really creative, AMD could make a SoC based on their chiplet tech where they can have x86 cores along with ARM cores and let developers choose how to utilize them. Intel could do this as well but AMD is more likely to do this. But again, who's gonna pay for this feature? Why would any developer utilize ARM when the market share for their core audience using ARM is so low.
        i do not see any reason to do business with assholes like intel or nvidia...
        Because all businesses are assholes when they have a Oligopoly, which Apple is the king of this. You can't buy a HP Macbook running a Qualcomm SoC with Mac OSX. You can buy a Intel or AMD machine running Windows or even Linux from many different manufacturers. It's not like the computer market has a lot of competitors. AMD and Nvidia for the moment are the only ones who make GPUs. AMD and Intel are the only ones making x86 CPU's. Apple is the only one making their ARM SoC and will stay like that because no clones are allowed. You can't run Mac OSX on Microsoft Surface Qualcomm machines.


        apple m2 is not on 4nm or 3nm right but M2max will be on 4nm
        Yea, M2‌‌ Pro and ‌M2‌‌ Max will debut in the first half of 2023. Just in time for AMD's 4nm laptop APU's using Zen4 and RNDA3.
        intel was only able to buy any TSMC 3nm node capacity because apple instead did buy IBM based 2nm,,,

        you think intel will be able to be on a better node than apple but i think this is wrong. on the time intel will be on 3nm apple will be on 2nm...
        Yea but guess who's also is in line for IBM's 2nm? By next year we'll see how well Apple's M series stacks up against AMD and Intel using similar manufacturing as Apple. While I don't think AMD and Intel would be 100% equal in terms of power consumption to Apple, I do think it'll be close enough that Apple's M series won't matter. ARM is a design meant to be power efficient and not fast, which has changed over time. x86 was meant for a mainframe that basically evolved thousands of times over and this time it's trying to be power efficient. It'll happen and it won't be good for Apple.
        https://gizmodo.com/apple-intel-in-l...ips-1848830019

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
          While I do like my Indie games like Hollow Knight and Undertale, I do play a lot of AAA games like Elden Ring and World of Warcraft. I really like my Elden Ring.
          Elden Ring is of course a AAA game. but World of Warcraft is by todays standard not a AAA game anymore.
          no one is going to buy a 4000-5000€ high-end computer to play WoW...
          also Elden Ring works well on playstation5 so any future hardware should not have any problem in running it.

          we do talk about future hardware right? 2nm... why do you think that ARM SOCs on 2nm with 60 billion tranistors do have any problem in running Elden Ring ?

          Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
          I don't think you understand what a walled garden is. Nintendo Switch is a walled garden because Nintendo actively prevents people from modding their devices and installing whatever they want. Apple prevents people from side loading on their iOS devices. Android and Windows doesn't, including the Steam Deck. People have gotten Nintendo Switch games running on the Deck. I install Aurora and F-Droid and avoid installing gapps when I flash LineageOS. I like to do whatever I want with the devices I own. That is one of the core principals of Linux.
          of course i know what is walled garden. of course apple IOS is walled garden and also Nintendo Switch.
          thats not the point. the point is: if Nintendo can make more money if they establish a store on steam deck then it is not impossible that they also allow steam playsstore on nintento hardware...

          you have to unterstand these people do what gives them the biggest amount of money possible
          they do walled garden if this is the biggest amount of money possible...
          they will share with valve if they can make even more money with that way.

          we both are not so different i also run LineageOS/Cyanogenmod based ROM (/e/OS) and i also use F-Droid..
          also i do not have any Nintendo product my last one was the first GameBoy 30 years ago...
          of course i will buy steam deck.

          Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
          Sure.
          not so fast dude... this is much bigger than just to say: sure... of course they will do it.
          of course they will make a vulkan to WebGPU tanslation layer.
          i am also sure that apple will enter the linux market with their ARM SOC hardware.
          it maybe will not look like the people think it will look like but it will happen.

          Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
          That's the same idea behind proton. The only problem is who wants to spend money to basically become a marketing tool? BTW that's basically what Apple M series owners are. If you want to get really creative, AMD could make a SoC based on their chiplet tech where they can have x86 cores along with ARM cores and let developers choose how to utilize them. Intel could do this as well but AMD is more likely to do this. But again, who's gonna pay for this feature? Why would any developer utilize ARM when the market share for their core audience using ARM is so low.
          i think AMD will do even more crazy shit in the future like a chiplet combination from CDNA and RDNA...
          again the market share of ARM is not low instead it is high market share but in different markets.
          you just dont see it in desktop or playstation or laptop but you see it everywhere else from smartTV to smartphone to car-pc...
          if you just count the chip sales on all cadegories ARM is already high in marketshare.

          and i am sure Valve want to be on these SmartTV of the future.

          Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
          Because all businesses are assholes when they have a Oligopoly, which Apple is the king of this. You can't buy a HP Macbook running a Qualcomm SoC with Mac OSX. You can buy a Intel or AMD machine running Windows or even Linux from many different manufacturers. It's not like the computer market has a lot of competitors. AMD and Nvidia for the moment are the only ones who make GPUs. AMD and Intel are the only ones making x86 CPU's. Apple is the only one making their ARM SoC and will stay like that because no clones are allowed. You can't run Mac OSX on Microsoft Surface Qualcomm machines.
          you talk like anyone outside of apple do want MACOSX... thats clearly not the case. i do not want it.
          AMD/Nvidia has some new competitors there is intel making gpus now and there are some chinese new gpu brands.
          there are also some new chinese x86 cpu makers but performance is not good.

          for me apple m1/M2 is only interesting because it can run linux.

          Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
          Yea, M2‌‌ Pro and ‌M2‌‌ Max will debut in the first half of 2023. Just in time for AMD's 4nm laptop APU's using Zen4 and RNDA3.
          no clearly not just in time.... apple will get 4nm first and then month after that amd gets some to.

          Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
          Yea but guess who's also is in line for IBM's 2nm? By next year we'll see how well Apple's M series stacks up against AMD and Intel using similar manufacturing as Apple. While I don't think AMD and Intel would be 100% equal in terms of power consumption to Apple, I do think it'll be close enough that Apple's M series won't matter. ARM is a design meant to be power efficient and not fast, which has changed over time. x86 was meant for a mainframe that basically evolved thousands of times over and this time it's trying to be power efficient. It'll happen and it won't be good for Apple.
          https://gizmodo.com/apple-intel-in-l...ips-1848830019
          well intel can buy any node they want to.. this does not mean that intel has success.

          for example intels ARC cpus are also on a modern 6nm TSMC node and these 6nm chips lose agaist AMDs 7nm chips big time.
          also if intel use these 3nm and 2nm for their GPUs and right now these ARC gpus are big loser then they just mitigate the fact that they are not competent to make GPUs...
          people say apple gpu lose agaist nvidia and also amd but it can be a possibility that apple gpus win agaist the intel arc gpus...

          so right now there is no indication that intel will win agaist these apple M SOCs...
          Phantom circuit Sequence Reducer Dyslexia

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by qarium View Post
            Elden Ring is of course a AAA game. but World of Warcraft is by todays standard not a AAA game anymore.
            You know the WoW community wouldn't disagree with you. It's become a meme, but they are a AAA gaming company. Though to give you an idea of the troubles x86 has, to play WoW without issues I need to run it on WIne-Staging. Anything else like TKG or Proton based wine builds will run it but when I close the game it'll hang and drive me nuts close all the left over executable left running. Elden Ring though will run on just about anything but on TKG or Proton builds I can double my frame rate thanks to fsync/futex2. You also need a fairly new kernel to use this function but this is the sort of thing you just can't get on Mac OSX. One developed by Valve and given freely to the community.
            no one is going to buy a 4000-5000€ high-end computer to play WoW...
            Nobody pays that much to play games. It's a myth that the typical gaming PC costs thousands of dollars. The most popular graphics card on Steam is a GTX 1060 from 2016. As you go down the list it gets worse with GTX 1050's and you see a RTX 2060 and 3060 here and there. The top AMD graphics card is a RX 580, which is also from 2016. These will play all the games just fine, even in Linux.
            https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/
            also Elden Ring works well on playstation5 so any future hardware should not have any problem in running it.
            Playstation 5 is another form of walled garden. Probably worse than Apple, but they don't advertise it as a computer. Can we get Linux on the PS5? Would make for a cheap gaming PC.
            we do talk about future hardware right? 2nm... why do you think that ARM SOCs on 2nm with 60 billion tranistors do have any problem in running Elden Ring ?
            I'm not sure what you mean. Technically they could, given they have a powerful enough GPU and the game was ported to the platform. Realistically Apple M series users can't because DX12 game. If Apple were to open source their OS then changes could be made to the kernel and maybe even port Vulkan over. Better yet, get Linux running on it.

            What you don't understand is that you can't just expect developers to write code for ARM or Mac OSX because Apple. This is why x86 still exists today because nobody feels like rewriting thousands or even millions of lines of code and watch so many things break, because Apple. Valve tried to get developers back in 2016 to port their games onto Linux for their Steam machines and it failed horribly. Still x86 machines but different OS. So Valve said fuck it, we're making Windows apps play nice in Linux.
            thats not the point. the point is: if Nintendo can make more money if they establish a store on steam deck then it is not impossible that they also allow steam playsstore on nintento hardware...
            Can they? The problem is that Nintendo makes money on third party sale of games and that's what keeps their wall garden sealed. Microsoft had to support Windows with their games because Xbox One failed. Yes it failed, get over it. Sony is porting their games to Windows because people don't want to buy a PS5 when their PC is better or good enough. Nintendo refuses to port their games because Switch sales are still doing well, and Nintendo is kinda old fashion about how they do things.

            Also Valve isn't preventing people from running none Steam games on their Deck. You could install a Nintendo Store and play Nintendo games if Nintendo offered it. The Deck is just a portable PC running custom Arc. It does have a desktop mode.
            again the market share of ARM is not low instead it is high market share but in different markets.
            ARM's market share is high but mostly unusable for gaming. Most phones don't have a built in gamepad you could just slide out like the Sony Xperia. Some companies have expandable storage while some don't. You have to deal with Apple's App store or Google's Play store as you can't install Steam. Android and iOS suck terribly. Android never updates as it doesn't work like a traditional OS, and iOS updates often but it's Apple's way or no way. There's a whole mess of problems that revolves around ARM that isn't ARM faults but is the fault of greedy companies who use ARM to propagate their business model. That's because anyone can make an ARM SoC. Apple does, Samsung does, Qualcomm, Rockchip, Broadcom, Nvidia, MediaTek, Texas Instruments, Allwinner, and it goes on. All these chips don't go by any standard that allows you to install any OS written for ARM. They are built specifically for the manufactures needs, which is usually a walled garden.
            and i am sure Valve want to be on these SmartTV of the future.
            I'm sure but unless something is done about Android and iOS, that won't happen.
            you talk like anyone outside of apple do want MACOSX... thats clearly not the case. i do not want it.
            AMD/Nvidia has some new competitors there is intel making gpus now and there are some chinese new gpu brands.
            there are also some new chinese x86 cpu makers but performance is not good.

            for me apple m1/M2 is only interesting because it can run linux.
            That's not my point. Apple is techno feudalism. You walk into Apple's ecosystem and also walk out of the market. You don't have the choice to run Linux. Someday someone will get Linux running on it, but it'll be horribly slow and use more power than Mac OSX. To get the GPU running alone is going to take several years before it's able to do anything 3D and will probably get 1/10th the performance compared to Mac OSX. We know this because Nouveau is in that state right now, and it's been around for more than several years. Apple doesn't even have one GPU but at least 5, and they aren't slowing down.

            Also none of those companies are morally clean. Intel tried to block AMD from selling their products by working with OEM's. Nvidia tried to cheat their benchmarks many times and just now started to open source their drivers. AMD also cheated on their drivers and even price fixed with Nvidia in the past. I have a laundry list with Apple from underpaid workers to products that should have been recalled like their keyboards or the antenna issue on their iPhones because you were holding it wrong. Plus Apple's pricing for a $1k monitor stand. They're all assholes but that doesn't mean you shouldn't buy their products, because when they have no competitors then they become a monopoly.

            well intel can buy any node they want to.. this does not mean that intel has success.

            for example intels ARC cpus are also on a modern 6nm TSMC node and these 6nm chips lose agaist AMDs 7nm chips big time.
            also if intel use these 3nm and 2nm for their GPUs and right now these ARC gpus are big loser then they just mitigate the fact that they are not competent to make GPUs...
            people say apple gpu lose agaist nvidia and also amd but it can be a possibility that apple gpus win agaist the intel arc gpus...
            I'm sure Intel's GPUs wont' be as good as AMD or Nvidia, but we need Intel to enter the market. Having a duopoly is not good for consumers. Look what happened to the situation where crypto once again became profitable. Just keep in mind that Intel has already gotten ARC working in Linux while Apple is wondering why everyone isn't using Metal.
            so right now there is no indication that intel will win agaist these apple M SOCs...
            The difference is that I can probably play Elden Ring on a ARC GPU while I can't on a Apple M based SOC, and this includes Linux because again Intel has been working on Linux support before their products are even released. Anyone who thinks they can game on a Apple M based product is extremely hopeful at best, or extremely delusional at worst. Good chance Intel ARC will lose to nearly all synthetic benchmarks against Apple. I'm extremely certain though that I can play most of my games on Intel's ARC, with Ray-Tracing, in Linux.
            Attached Files
            Last edited by Dukenukemx; 08 August 2022, 12:41 AM.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
              You know the WoW community wouldn't disagree with you. It's become a meme, but they are a AAA gaming company.
              of course they disagree but they are a joke A JOKE... WoW was a AAA game like 10 years ago ...
              and you say it by yourself: "most popular graphics card on Steam is a GTX 1060 from 2016"
              yes people buy a 150€ GPU card to WoW... who is weaker than a playstation 5...
              no sane person whould claim that WoW is a AAA game by todays standards...

              Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
              Though to give you an idea of the troubles x86 has, to play WoW without issues I need to run it on WIne-Staging. Anything else like TKG or Proton based wine builds will run it but when I close the game it'll hang and drive me nuts close all the left over executable left running. Elden Ring though will run on just about anything but on TKG or Proton builds I can double my frame rate thanks to fsync/futex2. You also need a fairly new kernel to use this function but this is the sort of thing you just can't get on Mac OSX. One developed by Valve and given freely to the community.
              again i do not believe that people even want MacOSX... i know back in the time people did want to run buy and sell mac clones but today it is more like apple do everything for themself because no one else want it.
              Apple lost the Operating System war long time ago...
              and you see it in valve steam supporŧ to: apple had to pay valve to do the steam port but valve did the linux port for free.

              Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
              Nobody pays that much to play games. It's a myth that the typical gaming PC costs thousands of dollars. The most popular graphics card on Steam is a GTX 1060 from 2016. As you go down the list it gets worse with GTX 1050's and you see a RTX 2060 and 3060 here and there. The top AMD graphics card is a RX 580, which is also from 2016. These will play all the games just fine, even in Linux.
              https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/
              my two threadripper systems with vega64 from 2017 did cost like 8000€ ...

              Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
              Playstation 5 is another form of walled garden. Probably worse than Apple, but they don't advertise it as a computer. Can we get Linux on the PS5? Would make for a cheap gaming PC.
              i do not have playstation5 and i will not buy it... but it is the definition of AAA games if a game runs on less powerfull hardware than playstation5 then it is most likly not a AAA game...

              Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
              I'm not sure what you mean. Technically they could, given they have a powerful enough GPU and the game was ported to the platform. Realistically Apple M series users can't because DX12 game. If Apple were to open source their OS then changes could be made to the kernel and maybe even port Vulkan over. Better yet, get Linux running on it.
              you just make excuses with DX12 because you can use proton to translate dx12 to vulkan and then moltenVK to translate it to metal...

              Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
              What you don't understand is that you can't just expect developers to write code for ARM or Mac OSX because Apple. This is why x86 still exists today because nobody feels like rewriting thousands or even millions of lines of code and watch so many things break, because Apple. Valve tried to get developers back in 2016 to port their games onto Linux for their Steam machines and it failed horribly. Still x86 machines but different OS. So Valve said fuck it, we're making Windows apps play nice in Linux.
              i do not expect anything. i just think Rosetta 2 will become better over time.
              i also think that linux solutions like box86 and box64 and FEX-Emu will also become better over time
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box86
              http://emulation.gametechwiki.com/index.php/FEX-Emu

              Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
              Can they? The problem is that Nintendo makes money on third party sale of games and that's what keeps their wall garden sealed. Microsoft had to support Windows with their games because Xbox One failed. Yes it failed, get over it. Sony is porting their games to Windows because people don't want to buy a PS5 when their PC is better or good enough. Nintendo refuses to port their games because Switch sales are still doing well, and Nintendo is kinda old fashion about how they do things.
              i think nintendo will open up because soon many children who only had smartphone or steam deck will never come in touch with any nintendo game... this means they open up or else they will lost million customers for life.
              come one years ago i would not expect that i can play sony gods of war on linux with steam and proton...
              and sony makes millions of euros just by selling playstation 5games to linux users on steam.
              Nintendo open up or else they go down ...

              Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
              Also Valve isn't preventing people from running none Steam games on their Deck. You could install a Nintendo Store and play Nintendo games if Nintendo offered it. The Deck is just a portable PC running custom Arc. It does have a desktop mode.
              why in hell should valve precent people from running non steam games on the deck ?
              the more people do this the more valve sells steam deck and also steam games because people don't only play none steam games on the deck it is more like a mix.
              yes right you know valve and linux won if Nintendo port a nintendo store to valve deck and sells nintendo games on the steam deck.

              the only one who can do stuff like this is existing monopoles like nvidia with CUDA and Nintendo and apple with their Iphones... new competition companies like valve just can not do it.


              Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
              ARM's market share is high but mostly unusable for gaming. Most phones don't have a built in gamepad you could just slide out like the Sony Xperia. Some companies have expandable storage while some don't. You have to deal with Apple's App store or Google's Play store as you can't install Steam. Android and iOS suck terribly. Android never updates as it doesn't work like a traditional OS, and iOS updates often but it's Apple's way or no way. There's a whole mess of problems that revolves around ARM that isn't ARM faults but is the fault of greedy companies who use ARM to propagate their business model. That's because anyone can make an ARM SoC. Apple does, Samsung does, Qualcomm, Rockchip, Broadcom, Nvidia, MediaTek, Texas Instruments, Allwinner, and it goes on. All these chips don't go by any standard that allows you to install any OS written for ARM. They are built specifically for the manufactures needs, which is usually a walled garden.
              who exactly stops valve in selling a gaming valve smartphone with steamOS on it ?

              Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
              I'm sure but unless something is done about Android and iOS, that won't happen.
              this already do happen google and valve already have a deal and google supports the steam store on their chromebooks ...
              you will see google's future andorid versions will support valve proton and box64 and FEX-Emu on every ARM device...
              so maybe yes you are right for the already existing ARM hardware like smartphones they maybe never get an update but this does not mean that they can not change it for the future.

              also users like us both who are already on custom ROMs who will get future updates i see this as a trent that more and more people will do stuff like this to get the updates anyway.

              Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
              That's not my point. Apple is techno feudalism. You walk into Apple's ecosystem and also walk out of the market. You don't have the choice to run Linux. Someday someone will get Linux running on it, but it'll be horribly slow and use more power than Mac OSX. To get the GPU running alone is going to take several years before it's able to do anything 3D and will probably get 1/10th the performance compared to Mac OSX. We know this because Nouveau is in that state right now, and it's been around for more than several years. Apple doesn't even have one GPU but at least 5, and they aren't slowing down.
              your nvidia example does not count because clearly nvidia did not want it. they did sapotage it.
              and right now from all i know apple do not sapotage it.


              Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
              Also none of those companies are morally clean. Intel tried to block AMD from selling their products by working with OEM's. Nvidia tried to cheat their benchmarks many times and just now started to open source their drivers. AMD also cheated on their drivers and even price fixed with Nvidia in the past. I have a laundry list with Apple from underpaid workers to products that should have been recalled like their keyboards or the antenna issue on their iPhones because you were holding it wrong. Plus Apple's pricing for a $1k monitor stand. They're all assholes but that doesn't mean you shouldn't buy their products, because when they have no competitors then they become a monopoly.
              for me only monopoles hurt me... apple does not have one.

              intel is forcing me into x86...
              microsoft is forcing me into windows...
              nvidia force me into CUDA...

              apple does force me into what exactly ?... well yes none.

              my last nintendo product was from 30 years ago the first gameboy
              my last apple product was from 1994...

              this means these companies are not successful in getting me as a customer.

              Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
              I'm sure Intel's GPUs wont' be as good as AMD or Nvidia, but we need Intel to enter the market. Having a duopoly is not good for consumers. Look what happened to the situation where crypto once again became profitable. Just keep in mind that Intel has already gotten ARC working in Linux while Apple is wondering why everyone isn't using Metal.
              you want competition to avoid duopoly but apple is a valid competition to AMD and Nvidia similar to intel is.

              everyone who sells GPUs and is not AMD or Nvidia is competition...

              Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
              The difference is that I can probably play Elden Ring on a ARC GPU while I can't on a Apple M based SOC, and this includes Linux because again Intel has been working on Linux support before their products are even released. Anyone who thinks they can game on a Apple M based product is extremely hopeful at best, or extremely delusional at worst. Good chance Intel ARC will lose to nearly all synthetic benchmarks against Apple. I'm extremely certain though that I can play most of my games on Intel's ARC, with Ray-Tracing, in Linux.
              thats all true but again this will not be forever like this.
              Phantom circuit Sequence Reducer Dyslexia

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by qarium View Post

                of course they disagree but they are a joke A JOKE... WoW was a AAA game like 10 years ago ...
                and you say it by yourself: "most popular graphics card on Steam is a GTX 1060 from 2016"
                yes people buy a 150€ GPU card to WoW... who is weaker than a playstation 5...
                no sane person whould claim that WoW is a AAA game by todays standards...
                Gamers Nexus did a comparison between the PS5 and some graphic cards including the GTX 1060 and in a lot of cases the GTX 1060 was faster. There's a reason why they said the PS5 was a high to mid range PC from 5 years ago, and also why the GTX 1060 is still a popular card used for gaming.

                again i do not believe that people even want MacOSX... i know back in the time people did want to run buy and sell mac clones but today it is more like apple do everything for themself because no one else want it.
                Apple lost the Operating System war long time ago...
                and you see it in valve steam supporŧ to: apple had to pay valve to do the steam port but valve did the linux port for free.
                Like it or not Mac OSX is the OS of choice for M based products, because it works. Sure someone got Linux to boot on a M1 Macbook, with hardly anything working. Linux on M series is essentially broken.
                my two threadripper systems with vega64 from 2017 did cost like 8000€ ...
                Threadripper is not a gaming CPU. But for comparison my main PC runs a Ryzen 2700X with a Vega56. The Ryzen 2700X was $200 off Ebay used. The Vega56 was $240 off Ebay used. The MSI B350 Tomahawk was $50 open box from NewEgg. Custom water cooling loop that is mostly from Aliexpress for cheap. Like $20 water block cheap. Case was free as my cousin gave it to me. Memory was cheap like $60 for 16GB. SSD is a1TB Intel 660p for $120. I'm using a 550w Seasonic that was $60 at the time. BTW I looked into turning my Vega56 into a Vega64 and I can't.
                i do not have playstation5 and i will not buy it... but it is the definition of AAA games if a game runs on less powerfull hardware than playstation5 then it is most likly not a AAA game...
                AAA games are games that have a very high budget. Doesn't matter what hardware it runs on.
                you just make excuses with DX12 because you can use proton to translate dx12 to vulkan and then moltenVK to translate it to metal...
                I haven't seen anyone do this at all. Just to give you an idea my HTPC runs a R9 Fury and I tried to get Elden Ring working on that and it won't. It does support Vulkan and does use DXVK but it lacks the features to get it working. The fix was To use this as it'll make it run like a DX11 game, at least the feature set. In theory it should work but in practice nobody has gotten these games working on Apple M series running Mac OSX. Look up Halo Inifinte, Red Dead Redemption 2, and Elden Ring.
                i think nintendo will open up because soon many children who only had smartphone or steam deck will never come in touch with any nintendo game... this means they open up or else they will lost million customers for life.
                come one years ago i would not expect that i can play sony gods of war on linux with steam and proton...
                and sony makes millions of euros just by selling playstation 5games to linux users on steam.
                Nintendo open up or else they go down ...
                Nintendo can't fight emulators, which right now Yuzu works fine on the Deck. That's a huge blow to Nintendo, and remember emulators typically need 10x the processing power than the system they try to emulator. That's a rule, but not a strict one. Why you think Sony released their games on Windows? Eventually someone would have a working PS4 emulator.
                why in hell should valve precent people from running non steam games on the deck ?
                the more people do this the more valve sells steam deck and also steam games because people don't only play none steam games on the deck it is more like a mix.
                yes right you know valve and linux won if Nintendo port a nintendo store to valve deck and sells nintendo games on the steam deck.
                Valve isn't making much money on the Deck. The $399 model with 64GB of storage is the one Valve is losing money from. Valve doesn't want anyone to show how to upgrade a $399 Steam Deck from it's 64GB SSD because they would rather have you buy decks that come with larger SSD's. They make money that way.

                The reason the Deck exists is to promote Steam and to ensure it's future. Valve has made it clear that it's afraid that Microsoft could eliminate them.
                who exactly stops valve in selling a gaming valve smartphone with steamOS on it ?
                Convenience. While you and me don't have a problem working around systems, most people don't got time for that. You could install Steam from a apk, but realistically how many people would do this? Epic does this but it really isn't working well. Google doesn't allow stores to be downloaded from Play.
                for me only monopoles hurt me... apple does not have one.

                intel is forcing me into x86...
                microsoft is forcing me into windows...
                nvidia force me into CUDA...

                apple does force me into what exactly ?... well yes none.

                my last nintendo product was from 30 years ago the first gameboy
                my last apple product was from 1994...

                this means these companies are not successful in getting me as a customer.
                Apple is techno feudalism, which means you enter their world and exit yours. You do what you want, within their EULA. Intel and AMD is forcing you into x86. Microsoft is using x86 to force you into Windows. Nvidia supports OpenCL so they aren't forcing you into anything. Apple will force you to ARM, with Mac OSX, and their devices. You can't build a Mac. You can't choose the CPU in your Mac. Apple owns your device, not you.
                you want competition to avoid duopoly but apple is a valid competition to AMD and Nvidia similar to intel is.
                For the most part AMD, Nvidia, and Intel don't care about Apple. They can't sell their products to Apple so Apple is no longer a factor. Apple is it's own market. This is why the EU forced Apple to finally use USB-C to charge their devices. When you buy a PC you have HP, Lenovo,Asus, Dell, and etc to choose from, with AMD, Intel, and Nvidia products in them. You can also build a PC from standard parts. You can buy Apple from Apple. It comes in limited colors.
                thats all true but again this will not be forever like this.
                Most likely it is. Unless Apple wakes up and turns things around, it won't have a future in computers. Apple needs to open source Mac OSX. They need to support Vulkan and other open standards. Paying to have a few games won't do a thing. Gamers won't go buy a Macbook to play games. Gamers don't install Linux to play games. I do it because i believe in the day of the Linux desktop, which is definitely not this year, or next year. Wine is still the biggest problem in getting gaming to work on Linux. It works great on Proton, in Steam, but not all games are on Steam. You have Wine, Wine-Staging, TGK, proton, and I'm sure more that I'm not aware of. We use managers like Lutris and Play on Linux just to get the right version to play our games. I tried running Yuzu PineappleEA and it doesn't work on a couple of my Mint machines due to Vulkan. I needed to install libgdk-pixbuf2.0-dev otherwise it would crash, and the Vuikan issue is due to Qt5Multimedia added. AppImage's are suppose to prevent this conflicts. I'm sure nobody tests this stuff out. That's how many people are gaming on Linux.
                Last edited by Dukenukemx; 08 August 2022, 02:21 PM.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by birdie View Post

                  "the act of leaving an insulting message on the internet in order to annoy someone"

                  If calling things what they really are is "an insulting message" then you're right. "Annoy people"? Only zealots seemingly get annoyed - there are lots of people here (considering "likes") who appreciate my posts. This is such a broad definition, you can call any fucking message here trolling because there always will be annoyed people who perceive something as "insulting". Find something a little bit more precise and logical because this definition is too vague.

                  That was written ironically, in jest. You really are thick, aren't you? I wrote multiple paragraphs with a ton of data, facts and proofs before that to explain my position.
                  Yes, your critics is justified most of the time (for me and few others). But often, you're quick to add insult along your critics. So often that many find it excessive. Maybe reducing the insulting message will do best for all.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by t.s. View Post

                    Yes, your critics is justified most of the time (for me and few others). But often, you're quick to add insult along your critics. So often that many find it excessive. Maybe reducing the insulting message will do best for all.
                    When people are mean to others, they are most often not inherently evil, they are just very unhappy. Describes me perfectly. I'm not using this as an excuse, I agree with you, I'm just explaining myself. I've been trying to restraint myself recently but sometimes I just cannot help myself saying something scathing. People love to distinguish themselves from animals, we call ourselves "intelligent", yet tribalism is perhaps the strongest here on Phoronix and r/Linux. And tribalism has very little to intelligence, in fact it's quite ancient and extremely narrow-minded.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
                      Gamers Nexus did a comparison between the PS5 and some graphic cards including the GTX 1060 and in a lot of cases the GTX 1060 was faster. There's a reason why they said the PS5 was a high to mid range PC from 5 years ago, and also why the GTX 1060 is still a popular card used for gaming.
                      the PS5 has raytracing support and the GTX 1060 does not have it.
                      no one cares if the 1060 has similar or higher FPS on outdated games.
                      also the PS5 has 16gb vram and these cheap cards like 1060 does not have 16gb vram means they maybe make high FPS but it is impossible to store all the necessary textures into the vram.
                      this means it is bullshit bingo to tell people the 1060 has high FPS because they do not display the same result.

                      Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
                      Like it or not Mac OSX is the OS of choice for M based products, because it works. Sure someone got Linux to boot on a M1 Macbook, with hardly anything working. Linux on M series is essentially broken.
                      OS if choice ?? here on phoronix.com this does mean something very different.

                      Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
                      Threadripper is not a gaming CPU. But for comparison my main PC runs a Ryzen 2700X with a Vega56. The Ryzen 2700X was $200 off Ebay used. The Vega56 was $240 off Ebay used. The MSI B350 Tomahawk was $50 open box from NewEgg. Custom water cooling loop that is mostly from Aliexpress for cheap. Like $20 water block cheap. Case was free as my cousin gave it to me. Memory was cheap like $60 for 16GB. SSD is a1TB Intel 660p for $120. I'm using a 550w Seasonic that was $60 at the time. BTW I looked into turning my Vega56 into a Vega64 and I can't.
                      well i do play on my Threadripper 1920x...

                      i really dont know what you want to tell me with your cheap computer... well you managed to build your rig cheap. well good. you have 16gb of ram i do have 128gb of ECC ram...
                      but if you do not need so much ram then well... you are welcome

                      Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
                      AAA games are games that have a very high budget. Doesn't matter what hardware it runs on.
                      ok dude then i spend 1 billion dollars on a comodore C64 game developed in 2022 ...
                      and i am 100% sure no one will call it a AAA game no matter what i do no matter i spend 1 billion dollars on the game.

                      Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
                      I haven't seen anyone do this at all. Just to give you an idea my HTPC runs a R9 Fury and I tried to get Elden Ring working on that and it won't. It does support Vulkan and does use DXVK but it lacks the features to get it working. The fix was To use this as it'll make it run like a DX11 game, at least the feature set. In theory it should work but in practice nobody has gotten these games working on Apple M series running Mac OSX. Look up Halo Inifinte, Red Dead Redemption 2, and Elden Ring.

                      well your argument is well lets say some kind of lost in space argument... because you make an anti-ARM argument and your proof for this argument is a x86_64 computer with a AMD R9 Fury gpu card...
                      so its complete pointless really.

                      Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
                      Nintendo can't fight emulators, which right now Yuzu works fine on the Deck. That's a huge blow to Nintendo, and remember emulators typically need 10x the processing power than the system they try to emulator. That's a rule, but not a strict one. Why you think Sony released their games on Windows? Eventually someone would have a working PS4 emulator.
                      well it looks like Nintendo and Sony better release their games on the steam deck and make some sales ...

                      Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
                      Valve isn't making much money on the Deck. The $399 model with 64GB of storage is the one Valve is losing money from. Valve doesn't want anyone to show how to upgrade a $399 Steam Deck from it's 64GB SSD because they would rather have you buy decks that come with larger SSD's. They make money that way.
                      maybe they do not make money on the 399dollars version but if you watch the sales statistic the one who is the most expensive modell is the one they sell the most. then who cares if they do not make money on the 399 version? if they sell 4-10 more expensive versions for every cheap one they sell and also makes a lot of money on steam sales.

                      "They make money that way"

                      you are serious ??? they make money? thats impossible because we know they lose money lol

                      Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
                      The reason the Deck exists is to promote Steam and to ensure it's future. Valve has made it clear that it's afraid that Microsoft could eliminate them.
                      it looks like it makes much more than this... it looks like they break 2 monopoles at the same time intel because it is amd hardware and also windows from microsoft...

                      the sales are so high that we can say for sure the microsoft windows monopole is finished.

                      Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
                      Convenience. While you and me don't have a problem working around systems, most people don't got time for that. You could install Steam from a apk, but realistically how many people would do this? Epic does this but it really isn't working well. Google doesn't allow stores to be downloaded from Play.
                      i am 100% sure in 5 years you can buy Valve gaming smartphone, Valve gaming console like playstation, valve gaming laptop, valve steam deck of course, Valve steam on car pc like the one in tesla cars, Valve approved SmartTV with steam store pre installed. based on AMD hardware and linux i think valve will even have a cloud service for hardware to slow to run these apps native.

                      Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
                      Apple is techno feudalism, which means you enter their world and exit yours. You do what you want, within their EULA. Intel and AMD is forcing you into x86. Microsoft is using x86 to force you into Windows. Nvidia supports OpenCL so they aren't forcing you into anything. Apple will force you to ARM, with Mac OSX, and their devices. You can't build a Mac. You can't choose the CPU in your Mac. Apple owns your device, not you.
                      Nvidia supports OpenCL ??? you do make jokes right ? nvidia only did openCL1.1 nothing more 2.0 did come out and nvidia did not support it and 2.1 did come out and nvidia did not support it then 3.0 did come out and nvidia did support it but only because you can claim you support it by only support 1.1 ...
                      in other words OpenCL is death and nvidia does not support it.

                      on the other side many people on this website reports that nvidia is forcing people into CUDA ecosystem because they have defacto monopole in compute ...

                      "Apple will force you to ARM"

                      I do not feel forced at all ?

                      Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
                      For the most part AMD, Nvidia, and Intel don't care about Apple. They can't sell their products to Apple so Apple is no longer a factor. Apple is it's own market. This is why the EU forced Apple to finally use USB-C to charge their devices. When you buy a PC you have HP, Lenovo,Asus, Dell, and etc to choose from, with AMD, Intel, and Nvidia products in them. You can also build a PC from standard parts. You can buy Apple from Apple. It comes in limited colors.
                      you become more and more professional in your rhetoric now you try to scare me away from apple with arguments like "apple products come in limited colors.... "
                      do you really think i care about colors at all ?
                      i am not homosexual and i am not a women... they could sell it in brown look who looks like "shit" i don't care.

                      USB-Type-C for apple is a really good move. but to be honest i think the EU did not force apple they decided to switch to typ-C and then they did give the OK to the EU to make this law.


                      Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
                      Most likely it is. Unless Apple wakes up and turns things around, it won't have a future in computers. Apple needs to open source Mac OSX.
                      why you freak ?... i do not want MacOSX ... and i do not want it if they opensource it.

                      they lost the operating system war long time ago.

                      Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
                      They need to support Vulkan
                      why you freak ?... i told you WebGPU is the relevant standard.

                      Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
                      and other open standards. Paying to have a few games won't do a thing. Gamers won't go buy a Macbook to play games. Gamers don't install Linux to play games. I do it because i believe in the day of the Linux desktop, which is definitely not this year, or next year. Wine is still the biggest problem in getting gaming to work on Linux. It works great on Proton, in Steam, but not all games are on Steam. You have Wine, Wine-Staging, TGK, proton, and I'm sure more that I'm not aware of. We use managers like Lutris and Play on Linux just to get the right version to play our games. I tried running Yuzu PineappleEA and it doesn't work on a couple of my Mint machines due to Vulkan. I needed to install libgdk-pixbuf2.0-dev otherwise it would crash, and the Vuikan issue is due to Qt5Multimedia added. AppImage's are suppose to prevent this conflicts. I'm sure nobody tests this stuff out. That's how many people are gaming on Linux.
                      well it is like you say it. but does this matter for the future ? i don't think so.
                      if you would go back 10-20 years and tell the people that in the future they can play most windows games with proton on linux no one would have believed it.

                      i think apple and valve should team up and then finish off microsoft and also intel.

                      Phantom circuit Sequence Reducer Dyslexia

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