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SDL2 Reverts Its Wayland Preference - Goes Back To X11 Default

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  • #81
    Originally posted by Weasel View Post
    Why does it matter if he codes? Design decisions that matter if you code are those internal to a project, not to an end user. If a design decision impacts end user then nobody gives a shit if he can code or not.

    In fact that's probably the issue here, since Wayland developers (those who develop the protocol I mean) are a bunch of retards who thinks the world revolves around their computing needs and reject any sensible feature request that other users want out of their display server/protocol because they use it on X11.

    Claiming "it's not needed" makes them a bunch of lunatic fringe fucks.
    The people who develop Wayland are the same people who have been maintaining and developing X11 for over a quarter of a century. In fact the Wayland developers happen to be the ONLY X11 developers left. No-one knows X11 better than them and no-one is better qualified to decide what makes sense for a Linux graphical stack. As has been said a thousand times, Wayland is not intended to be a drop-in replacement for X11. That something worked on X11 means little in terms of whether Wayland should allow it or not. Think of it as replacing DOS with NT or MacOS Classic with OSX. In both cases there were countless tools and entire workflows that became unsupported and unusable, because maintaining them would basically defeat the purpose of moving away from the old system in the first place.


    • #82
      Originally posted by birdie View Post
      Nothing in Fedora 35 uses, OK?
      Allow me to prove how wrong you are: wlroots-0.14.1-3.fc35.x86_64.rpm
      Provides: / wlroots / wlroots(x86-64)
      Required By: cage / hikari / labwc / sway / wayfire / wlroots-devel

      Originally posted by birdie View Post
      To fuck with wlroots, OK?
      Oh, wait, none of them use wlroots.
      I don't see your point, just because you mentioned projects whose developers didn't get involved doesn't mean it's irrelevant or not feasible. There is still Sway, Wayfire, Hikari (FreeBSD), KwinFT... as functional wlroots based compositors. If anything, you should rejoice since someone started the effort of a unified library.

      Originally posted by birdie View Post
      I don't fucking care about the "library" which no one uses and which is not a library. Nothing in Fedora 35 uses, OK?

      Library is something which is dynamically loaded and is shared between applications. This is not how wlroots was designed - it's meant to be built-in, so essentially it's not a library it's a fucking dump of source code you're free to include.
      You're just defining Shared Objects. Libraries could be anything reusable depending on the programming language. And even so, you're still wrong about wlroots.


      • #83
        Originally posted by jacob View Post

        Fascinating logic. The Linux XFS driver doesn't work on Windows. Could people stop pushing Windows when it's clearly not ready?
        Well thats a reductionist fallacy when I see one.

        Originally posted by Myownfriend View Post

        What is this supposed to mean? Literally none of the reasons stated for this reversion have anything to do with the protocol. They literally said that the Wayland support in SDL is stable but they're reverting because of issues with third party software and they were first to point out Nvidia drivers.

        The reason that OBS doesn't work properly on Wayland on Nvidia hardware is because Nvidia drivers don't support EGL_NATIVE_RENDERABLE. The reason why Gnome night light doesn't work on Nvidia hardware in Wayland is because the driver doesn't support GAMMA_LUT and according to Nvidia it's part of the reason why Gamescope has issues running on Nvidia hardware either.

        The core problem is the very fact that Wayland was released as a protocol with no real implementation backing it. Do note the process of doing this is also historically rare and not that successful. Typically speaking an interface/protocol is derived from a known well working implementation and not the other way around (because a protocol with no real implementation is just pure theory).

        The only exception for this are mathematically proven protocols for areas such as networking/leader election (i.e. RAFT consensus algorithm) but thats nothing close to what Wayland does.

        The point still remains though, Wayland should not be changed to default unless the protocol and the ecosystem around it area ready which it clearly is not.

        Also not sure why there is so much pushback on this, its nothing controversial.
        Last edited by mdedetrich; 20 April 2022, 07:29 AM.


        • #84
          Originally posted by birdie View Post
          Won't chime in in a single Wayland related topic any time soon.
          Thanks for stopping spreading FUD then.


          • #85
            Local phoronix man disagrees with wayland design, goes mental. ah yup, theres birdie alright.


            • #86
              Originally posted by birdie View Post
              I can use almost any WM under any DE under Xorg.

              XFWM4 (from XFCE) running KDE? No problems.
              KWin running XFCE? No problems.
              Mutter running KDE? No problems.
              All of them have some serious issues even when you use XFWM4 with XFCE, KWin with KDE and Mutter with Gnome, so it's not true.
              Tried to run KDE with Mutter some time ago. It's been accident I haven't noticed that I switched this and no - it doesn't work at all.
              But there are more serious issues with all WMs:
              - Multidisplay support on Mutter in X11 is broken since forever. The only X11 Windows Manager where it kind of works for me is KWin, but there are some issues when you connect and disconnect displays - sometimes you need to turn display off and on with xrandr. It works perfectly fine on Mutter and KWin Wayland display servers though.
              - The situation is even funnier with fractional scalling. It doesn't work in X11 at all. You can use xrandr for this and then it sometimes work, but with many issues and performance is rather bad. On the other hand it works flawlessly with KWin and Mutter compositors.
              None of them implement the display protocol, none of them reimplement screen settings, keyboard/mouse, locale, systray, drag and drop, screen sharing and casting, and a metric ton of features the Xorg server provides out of the box.
              Some of those features shouldn't be implemented by display server at all. They're in X11 because many years ago somebody put them there and nobody cared to fix this. But thanks for remainder - screen sharing in X11 is also broken. It works in Wayland unless you use NV drivers.
              I've got one fucking configuration for all Xorg/X11 DEs.
              I have none for Wayland. Don't need it - default config just works.
              Each fucking compositor under Wayland has its own configuration file and format.
              Don't really care about this - I've never needed to modify them manually.


              • #87
                Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post

                he core problem is the very fact that Wayland was released as a protocol with no real implementation backing it. Do note the process of doing this is also historically rare and not that successful. Typically speaking an interface/protocol is derived from a known well working implementation and not the other way around (because a protocol with no real implementation is just pure theory).
                That's not true. Wayland was and always has been developed hand-in-hand with an implementation: Weston. Wayland's and Weston's first release was on the same day and that was before the client and server APIs stabilized.

                Fun fact: "The X11 protocol was designed with little idea of how it would be implemented and was fully specified before the implementation began."


                That's on page 3 though the full quote is:

                "The X11 protocol was designed with little idea of how it would be implemented and was fully specified before the implementation began. It is of course true, however, that if we did not un- derstand how to implement something in a reasonable amount of time and effort (since timeli- ness was critical) we did not add it to the design; for example, non-rectangular windows have been added as an extension since the original release. We did not understand at the time how easy they would be to implement, and therefore explicitly rejected them during the design meet- ing. The specification was changed during alpha and beta test as we learned from the imple- mentation; often errors in the specification or design flaws were uncovered as the implementa- tion proceeded. We are very skeptical of systems that have never been implemented before widespread adoption; similarly, systems that have not been carefully specified before imple- mentation begins are also suspect."
                Last edited by Myownfriend; 20 April 2022, 12:06 PM.


                • #88
                  Originally posted by Weasel
                  Imagine blaming people for ignoring you and calling them names when you're the quote war asshat who quotes every single word and nobody wants to bother with.

                  Your problem.
                  This means nothing lol Yea dude, imagine backing up what you say by citing stuff. Couldn't be you. So cringe 😛


                  • #89
                    Oh wait... forgot about one thing.

                    Originally posted by birdie View Post
                    Where's KWin using wlroots?


                    Last edited by tildearrow; 20 April 2022, 06:56 PM.


                    • #90
                      Originally posted by birdie View Post
                      This is a fucking lie. Wayland is held back by its asinine design decisions and asinine implementations.
                      Oh, now I understand. You are Artem S. Tashkinov. Right? I've run into your authorship online at times. You are definitely colorful and passionate in what you believe. I don't think you and I have had a discussion before. Nice to make your acquaintance.

                      Unfortunately, not correct in the details though. Today is not a new day where everything just started right now in this instant. All of the things that bother you about Wayland could have been resolved four or more years ago had Nvidia not tried to strong-arm the Wayland devs with EGLStreams. This problem is overwhelmingly a timeline problem. SDL devs can't code for a Nvidia thing that isn't supported in conjuction with a Wayland thing that isn't supported because of the Nvidia dependency. This is just simple coding problems, all developers run into dependency woes at some point or another right?


                      In the end, the brave David-esque Mesa developers stared down Goliath Huang and ultimately were triumphant. Nvidia folded and now is on with GBM but only kind of supports GBM. It would be myopic to try to claim that Nvidia having a war with the developers to insist on EGLStreams as their own personal preference when they don't even contribute on the open source side anyways, that that's not going to have some sort of repercussions. It does have repercussions.


                      I'm only kidding with you about the David and Goliath thing though. :-) In all seriousness, you should note that in both the 2016 article as well as the 2021 article, it is widely acknowledged that the GBM/EGLStreams fight was (and is) detrimental on the Wayland front.

                      Originally posted by birdie View Post
                      Yeah, he strikes straight into the brains of Linux users who suddenly lose dozens of IQ points when they see the word NVIDIA.
                      Now, we can all be nice and civil and have a decent conversation around here, right?