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A Battle For Good Open-Source Game Graphics?

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  • kraftman
    replied
    Originally posted by MaestroMaus View Post
    He didn't say games are all about graphics. He said graphics are also important. And that is something I would personally agree with. I also remember how cool it was to play RA years ago, and that in my memory it was one of the best strategy games ever. Looking at it objectively though, it is not good to today's standards. It is nostalgia that interferes. I am not a fallout/RPG player, so I don't know how much of this is true for those games. But I guess games like Diablo III are much better then fallout 1/2 if you would compare them on a objective basis.
    Ok, thanks for pointing this, but don't even compare diablo to Fallouts, because it's stupid hack and slash :P

    @Duo Maxwell

    Why did you mention those games? Are they OS or free maybe? Btw. I really don't want to see console crap on PC's (except Virtua Fighter).

    There are some OS games which are better than many comercial titles - Spring RTS + mods (much better gameplay then Supreme Commander IMO), UFO AI (better then UFO Aftermath etc.), Urban Terror, DangerDeep (when it'll be finished and it can't beat SH 2 yet), Vega Strike, Flight Gear.

    Sorry opensource existed way before the GPL and most of it was public domain. In fact the Freespace engiine license if it was around, and was used in his printer drivers, it would have allowed for Stallman to fix his crappy printer drivers and possibly lose inspiration to even create the GPL.
    But it doesn't mean GPL isn't essence of Open Source. About second part - maybe, possibly, who knows...
    Last edited by kraftman; 04-27-2009, 10:40 AM.

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  • deanjo
    replied
    Originally posted by kraftman View Post
    GPL is essence of Open Source. This thread is about REAL Open Source games not about free crappy licenses.
    Sorry opensource existed way before the GPL and most of it was public domain. In fact the Freespace engiine license if it was around, and was used in his printer drivers, it would have allowed for Stallman to fix his crappy printer drivers and possibly lose inspiration to even create the GPL.
    Last edited by deanjo; 04-27-2009, 08:30 AM.

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  • Irritant
    replied
    Originally posted by Duo Maxwell View Post
    I don't see it so much as a problem of quality graphics, but one of gameplay and physics, so what we can render in GLSL now, the game will still be a basic @$$ FPS game which is nothing more then a gilded Quake clone, there is no story and no game play innovation.
    This is a matter of taste here, and no offense, to say there is no game play innovation or that it is a quake clone is a bit uninformed. Alien Arena has a variety of modes besides just straight deathmatch. There is Deathball, which is kind of like soccer war. There is Team Core Assault, which is a team based strategy mode that is beyond frantic. There is Cattle Prod, another team based mode that involves herding robotic cattle mutants, and there is All Out Assault which involves flying around in spaceships. There are also class-based modes, and other various mutators that alter the game play in interesting ways.

    The choice to make an FPS has little to do with anything other than it has been my favorite type of game for 15 years. I grew up during the initial video game explosion(yes I'm pretty old), and trust me, I've played my fair share of nearly every type of game in existence. I've also created a good number of game types. It has nothing to do with "not knowing anything else", it just comes down to a matter of taste. I don't care for RPG's, so I didn't make one, but that isn't stopping anyone from using mine, or any other of the FPS engines to make one.

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  • mirv
    replied
    Originally posted by crispy View Post
    I was just wondering, since one of the main problems i keep hearing is that texture and gameplay artists are needed, why don't you find an already great mod for another game and make it compatible with the game engine in question?
    It doesn't quite work that way. A mod is typically dependent upon the underlying engine (or at least its interfaces).

    I also see a lot of people making custom engines, but not the tools required to work with them. People would more willing to work with an engine, I think, if the editors were there as well. Just my opinion.

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  • crispy
    replied
    I was just wondering, since one of the main problems i keep hearing is that texture and gameplay artists are needed, why don't you find an already great mod for another game and make it compatible with the game engine in question?

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  • Duo Maxwell
    replied
    Originally posted by kraftman View Post
    GPL is essence of Open Source. This thread is about REAL Open Source games not about free crappy licenses.

    Nope, Pacman is simple arcade game not RPG or Strategy. If only graphic counts we'd be playing 3D mark games. Every game which focuses mainly on graphics is crap. There's no game which can compete with Fallout 1 or 2.
    Legend Of Zelda, Final Fantasy, Breath Of Fire, Tale Of Mana, Chrono Trigger, Metal Gear Solid, Castlevania, Megaman, Super Mario Brothers, Metroid, Stalker, King Of Fighters, Kengo: Master Of Bushido, Onimusha, Shadow Of The Colossus, Indigo Prophecy/Fahrenheit, Zone Of The Enders, Armored Core, Incredible Crisis, Virtua Fighter, Gran Tourismo, Panzer Dragoon, Devil May Cry, Sonic The Hedgehog I haven't even named a fraction of the great games and series out there that could be looked to for inspiration.

    Hell I don't even think it'd even be possible to make some of the great arcade shooters like Time Crisis or House Of The Dead work on a comp.

    It's also been posted that we should really have some DIY engines like RPG Maker, Fighter Maker, Mugen and Neverwinter Nights, if the community if dev bound then open up the actal game making to the potential players, you just have to build an engine and dev tools that let any idiot be able to slap together maps and chars like they're playing a Tony Hawk's Pro Skater title.

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  • MaestroMaus
    replied
    Originally posted by kraftman View Post
    Nope, Pacman is simple arcade game not RPG or Strategy. If only graphic counts we'd be playing 3D mark games. Every game which focuses mainly on graphics is crap. There's no game which can compete with Fallout 1 or 2.
    He didn't say games are all about graphics. He said graphics are also important. And that is something I would personally agree with. I also remember how cool it was to play RA years ago, and that in my memory it was one of the best strategy games ever. Looking at it objectively though, it is not good to today's standards. It is nostalgia that interferes. I am not a fallout/RPG player, so I don't know how much of this is true for those games. But I guess games like Diablo III are much better then fallout 1/2 if you would compare them on a objective basis.
    Last edited by MaestroMaus; 04-27-2009, 04:59 AM. Reason: typo's

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  • kraftman
    replied
    Originally posted by cb88 View Post
    GPL isn't everything.... development is free to continue on the engine and it is free to use and even distribute for non commercial purposes

    Its free perhaps not up to RMS standards... but your free not to put your time into working on the game :-P

    seriously GPL BSD whatever license trolling is what doesn't belong in this thread
    GPL is essence of Open Source. This thread is about REAL Open Source games not about free crappy licenses.

    I mean, if graphics meant nothing, we'd be playing Pac Man, right?
    Nope, Pacman is simple arcade game not RPG or Strategy. If only graphic counts we'd be playing 3D mark games. Every game which focuses mainly on graphics is crap. There's no game which can compete with Fallout 1 or 2.

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  • Duo Maxwell
    replied
    Originally posted by curaga View Post
    Why is everyone so focused on graphics. I'd dump crysis any day for a game that has both great gameplay and a great story.
    I don't see it so much as a problem of quality graphics, but one of gameplay and physics, so what we can render in GLSL now, the game will still be a basic @$$ FPS game which is nothing more then a gilded Quake clone, there is no story and no game play innovation.

    I've already stated a few modern games anyone looking to make games for linux should play and try to emulate.

    Seriously, we can't even get any good 2d games knocked out that of the same quality or addictiveness as old NES, Gameboy or SNES level.

    I've also stated before why there hasn't been a play for more brand recogniticion by making some epic adventure platformers based off of the various open source mascots.

    I seriously wonder if any of the game makers ever even owned a playstation or any other console... It seems like all they know is how to remake Quake/Unreal Tournament/Doom over and over again. And not even the more modern ones.

    Seriously, find me someone that can draw and someone that can build a 2d rpg engine and I'm sure we could hammer out a half decent 2d RPG.

    Seriously, if a single guy can pull off Cave Story http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_Story get it ported to every OS and get it sold on the Wii then why the hell can't the open source community? Don't give me crap about no way to make money, toss up a donation page, source your code and charge a nominal fee for the art if you have to, if that rubs you the wrong way commons release the art for the incidentals and just keep the art for just the key character, castle and item models as well as the story.

    I.E. you hold on to your hero, but you release the mart for the villagers, you keep your reocurring, key to the plot boss but release the basic critters and unoriginal minions. Keep your theme song, release the basic background music and the sound effects package.

    Charge $5 for the game in full for everything, or just try and get it sold on consoles, as many as possible, if that means rewriting the code to get it on the xbox, if you've got the time, by all means.

    You want things liek the Freerunner Neo, GP2X or Pandora to take off? well it's gonna need games, of all sorts.

    Now back to work you slaves! Open source is supposed to be the realm of SciFi geeks and fantasy nerds, act like it! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuvQt8_XFww /inspirational music

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  • sloggerKhan
    replied
    Originally posted by Irritant View Post
    Hello, I just wanted to add some details about what we've been doing with Alien Arena, and the CRX engine.

    The addition of GLSL to CRX actually began in August of 2008, which on the surface seems simple enough, but as someone stated, it's one thing to add the shader support, it's another to make it do something useful. We were able to add parallax, normal, and specular effects to the map surfaces, as well as very nice dynamic lighting effects. After that we added new per-pixel water effects. The most difficult issue was getting normal/specular mapping to work on models, which took alot of trial and error, but finally we got that working about a month or so ago. This allowed us to remove the old fixed function per-pixel effects that were just horrendously slow, and not nearly as nice looking. It also forced us to completely rewrite the way meshes were rendered, which was a good thing. We are still exploring some other ideas with using GLSL for effects, and who knows what we will come up with. We are also looking at shadow mapping, and some other options.

    I know when things get mentioned about graphics, people immediately think that is all that is being focused on, and that other things are neglected, but that is definitely not the case. Even though we've done alot of renderer work over the last year, we've also managed to work heavily on gameplay, artwork, and levels. Since the release of Alien Arena 2007, nearly every model and map have been replaced, which is something I don't think I've seen any other free game do in that timeframe. I really believe we have a remarkable little team in place that is devoted to their hobby. It was said in this thread that most FOSS games are held back by their art, and that Alien Arena was among those, but I firmly believe that our art assets are of good quality. I know that can be subjective and that is fine(and yes, I *am* biased ).

    Regarding physics, there are things floating around in our minds, though I doubt they would come in the upcoming release, may down the road, such as ragdolls, and vehicle physics. Destructible enviroments? Possibly, well it's possible now, but not in a modern or cool way, but that could be something interesting in a deathmatch game I think.

    The ultimate goal for us(besides having a blast working on a game) is to create an experience that is not only fun, but rich visually and aurally. I mean, if graphics meant nothing, we'd be playing Pac Man, right? It all counts, IMO, and no aspect of the game ever gets untouched between releases. We've done a lot of nice little things too, which will become more apparent when the release comes out, to make it just a more fun and pleasing experience.

    Speaking of graphics, there is always a delicate balance of looking good vs playing good, and finding the right combination is often tricky. So to that end, we've steadily been optimizing, and at the same time adding various "eye candy" features. We've also made sure that the game is very scalable, so that people with older hardware can still play the game, which is often other dicey trick. You can very easily wind up bloating an engine trying to do that, so it has to be done with great care.

    As for the future, and the other various similar games like Nexuiz, Warsow, Sauerbraten, it's really great to see these games pushing ahead, each trying to outdo the other. A little friendly competition is great(though in the gaming world that is another difficult thing to maintain, unfortunately). I don't know what the impending release of id tech 4 will have as impact. Most of these games are already making use of the same type of technologies, so I doubt many will be switching over. We saw the same thing with the other Quake engines. There were dozens of tech 1 engines, then when tech 2 was released, a handful of those. Tech 3 has far fewer, so I do wonder. I think most will attempt to glean some things from tech 4 rather than make a wholesale switch.
    I agree that in my experience Alien Arena has had some of the most cohesive art and overall atmosphere and design in Open source games. The weakness I've seen with alien arena has been that the gameplay was straightforward shooter. I love playing nexuiz because the lasers, rocketpacks, and grapling hooks add something to the game even if the artwork and design aren't cohesive.

    Don't know what my point is.

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