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Epic Games Announces Easy Anti-Cheat For Linux - Including Wine/Proton

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  • #41
    Originally posted by theriddick View Post
    It does weed out some cheaters. Something to remember is sometimes they do ban wave methods which is a big list of soon to be banned players helped generated by EAC like meta collection. Unfortunately cheaters cause allot of damage in between these time periods and also can spoof hw and use stuff like ESP to skirt AC measures for quite some time!
    It is also know that the anti-cheat measures are not the best possible. Lot of game companies want to cause cheaters to buy as many copies of the game as possible to recover the development cost. This means they don't want to make the anti-cheat system too good. Its know if a cheater is banned under 1 min the odds of them buying another copy is almost zero but if you let them play at least 20 min before you ban them the odds are about 80%. 20 mins with a cheater in a FPS absolutely suxs.

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    • #42
      Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

      It is also know that the anti-cheat measures are not the best possible. Lot of game companies want to cause cheaters to buy as many copies of the game as possible to recover the development cost. This means they don't want to make the anti-cheat system too good. Its know if a cheater is banned under 1 min the odds of them buying another copy is almost zero but if you let them play at least 20 min before you ban them the odds are about 80%. 20 mins with a cheater in a FPS absolutely suxs.
      Well the issue with being too strict is allot of false positives. Go into any steam EAC game discussion and you will see people being banned for no reason, some developers admit it like SCUM dev, and are trying to resolve the issue. Other devs don't. So yes EAC and BE could be better... maybe one day. I would love for them to stop ESP like cheats!

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      • #43
        Finally I can play paladins on Linux!

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        • #44
          Originally posted by Teggs View Post
          I thought this would never happen, because it benefits Valve, which competes with Epic, and also because it benefits Linux, which Tim Sweeney seems to despise. Obviously my expectations were wrong.

          Now I just wonder how much money changed hands and what sort of pressure was applied.

          I don't imagine BattlEye wants to be the only 'solution' which makes its customers' games unplayable on the Steam Deck... maybe a domino effect will come.
          Valve is pushing for Linux to be a viable Windows replacement, for gaming. The more games, from the more vendors that runs flawlessly on Linux, the more viable it is. I believe this is the reason that Valve is working with as many (competitors or not) as they can, and makes all their Linux work available to everyone, including competitors. It's a way for Valve to ensure that Microsoft doesn't cut into Steam's profits, or ensure that the Windows Store won't become a flat out competitor to Steam.

          I don't think that any money has changed hands, I just believe that many companies wants to get in on the hand-held-pc/console-formfactor
          Last edited by mbrf; 24 September 2021, 12:29 AM.

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          • #45
            Originally posted by theriddick View Post
            Well the issue with being too strict is allot of false positives. Go into any steam EAC game discussion and you will see people being banned for no reason, some developers admit it like SCUM dev, and are trying to resolve the issue. Other devs don't. So yes EAC and BE could be better... maybe one day. I would love for them to stop ESP like cheats!
            To be correct its method more than strict. Looking for super human server side is different to what EAC and BE does.
            https://guidedhacking.com/threads/ho...i-cheat.15956/

            Yes it more than known what EAC does. Yes a lot of the no reason bans with EAC is player had some bit of software that does not really effect the game that EAC did not recognise correctly so the player was banned. Items that have been using looking for super human methods server side have not had the false positive problem.

            Yes battleye does the same thing.

            There is a catch of cause the server side anti-cheat has to built into the game engine to have enough information to work out if all players action are super human or not. The reality here this is away less strict system because you are not caring what is on the client system. So systems like faceit server side have a very low false positive rate to almost non existent false positive rate. They also have a very short time that a cheater remains on the system before the player banned. I really do mean short the average is 32 seconds. So the arguement of risk of being too strict is why the delay in banning cheaters is not true. Yes a cheating player been like 8 mouse clicks in and banned is not uncommon yes this level of dropping the ban hammer on players who actions are super human does not result huge numbers of false positives. There have been a handful cases where the profile for super human has had to be adjusted because there was human was by the software was super human. Yes these cases are rare enough for faceit and others using this method that they can go to the person who in banned in person and confirm that opps we got it wrong. Of course if the person lies to them they are up for travel cost as well as the game ban.

            Also the good server side don't have high false negative rate either. They are basically heuristically removing complete classes of cheats by the server side processing.

            EAC and BE are not really designed to go after ESP cheats generically. But there are many different server side anticheat systems that are absolutely designed to go after ESP cheats generically. Funny enough most common error with server side anticheat is failing to flag that admin players are allowed to cheat by using ESP and the like resulting the Admin players being banned by the server side anti cheat.

            Depending on the method of ESP done in server side anti-cheat some these can catch players who have two computer and are stream snipping because the players actions show the server anti-cheat they know stuff they should not know. EAC and BE are not design to catch players stream snipping either. Server side is looking for evidence by action of cheating. Client side is looking at players installed software and attempt to guess if the player is cheating from that. Of course the client side anti-cheat does not help against zen hardware and other equal cheats that are in use today.

            The reality is the are quite a few great server side anti cheat solutions in existence. Horrible the most common anti-cheats you get with your AAA games are the ones that are not great with high false positive rates and long play times until cheater is banned. It is very different when you start playing on games with good server side anti-cheat because normally are not playing against cheaters if they are cheaters they disappear very early normally to their shock horror because they think they are using some undetectable cheat in under 60seconds.

            Do note the good server side anti-cheats I am talking about are not using player review of game play. They simple have a model of the max theory a human can do in the game. Yes that that max theory is already meant to be a super human. Those doing cheats exceed this.

            Interesting enough if a player is cheating and limits themselves to the max theory human set in the server side anti cheat of the game in the cheat design in many cases the cheating player will still be beatable by non cheating players. There is a little thing called tactics that can allow a lower skilled player to beat a higher skilled player as long as the skill difference is not too wide. Limiting how far a player can cheat does prevent cheaters from ruining playing the game.
            Last edited by oiaohm; 24 September 2021, 01:08 AM.

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            • #46
              Originally posted by jaxa View Post

              Don't like it? Don't play it. I only use GOG and Steam.
              Now we only need to convince game publishers to warn users about controversal privacy-threating trusted computing anticheats befor you buy a game. Also, to convince Valve and other stores to make a refund possible is such anticheat was introduced with update.

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              • #47
                I dont know what you guys are so happy about?! It's only a small step.
                The whole thing is opt-in on the publisher/developer side. By default linux support and wine support is turned off. This means as long as they do not give official linux support, they will not enable it and nothing changes to the situation we have right now. So this means is the steam deck is not a huge success, like in surprisingly HUUUUGEEEE, nothing will change to what we have right now.

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                • #48
                  Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

                  This only partly true we have open source games FPS that have been used in competition play that have server side anticheat that do not depend on 3ms ping time. These server side anti-cheats have turned out to be just as more worthy as client side anti-cheats and more trust worthy than combination client side anti-cheats and server side anti-cheats(as in ones designed to work with each other).

                  No anti-cheat is perfect other than having the person play in front of certified staff on certified hardware to see if they really have the skill or not and to abstract a real player profile.
                  Yes I am aware of these systems, Path of Exile/Diabolo also had a similar system where the server trusts the state for the client up until a certain point where the states become so misaligned that the server then tells the client, "hey something is really up with your system so now I am forcing yours state to the be the same the servers".

                  What ends up happening is what gamers typically call rubber banding, i.e. suddenly your character pops into a completely different position since on the server you are at point A but your client is at point A + somethng where something is deemed to be so far that you are now out of sync.

                  This is also a very simplistic problem, you get even weirder problems where for example the client is in some state that allows something to happen (since they are in a different position) and the server not. Ultimately the ironic problem is such a system has more problems the worse the latency is the worse this experience is because the delta between the server and client happens incredibly frequently.

                  In Path of Exile people were complaining about it so much (and I was playing it) that they just added the option to only use the state of the sever so people that did have at least decent enough connection didn't have this problem. Do note that what I am talking about is for non FPS games, the rubber banding that occurs in such a system would be more problematic for FPS so that is why almost no one does it this way, instead FPS games try and track the state of the client and if the clients state appears to be completely unrealistic then they get banned and this is very hard to do well.

                  The point you have very fundamental problems that you cannot get around, one is physics and the other one is that you can never trust the client.
                  Last edited by mdedetrich; 24 September 2021, 03:08 AM.

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                  • #49
                    Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post

                    Well until everyone gets fiber optic internet with 3ms ping time, you cannot just fully rely on server side checking (especially if we are talking about FPS games).
                    That is not how physics works. The fastest network in existance is still subject to the speeds of light/electricity/compute clocks, which makes much of the planet farther than 3ms apart

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                    • #50
                      Originally posted by doomie View Post

                      They have principles? I'm legit ignorant, I've only heard some noise about Valve's sales cut, but I don't remember hearing any underlying principles...
                      Tim Sweeney said (and still says) many times that he supports open platforms. It's strange to say that you support open platform and you don't give any support to the only true open platform between GNU/Linux, Windows and macOS. Windows and macOS are not "open" by design, but due Microsoft and Apple open their hands. The openness of macOS and Windows is not a user right, but something that companies allow to you.

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