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Valve's Dota 2 Adds AMD FidelityFX Super Resolution

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  • #41
    Originally posted by flashmozzg View Post
    I don't get the TAA fad. It looks good on static screenshot but in practice I'd prefer even blurry FXAA over that crap. It's a shame game don't include at least SMAA by default.
    There are huge differences between different TSSAA implementation in terms of motion blur, ghosting and temporal stability.

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    • #42
      Originally posted by aufkrawall View Post
      There are huge differences between different TSSAA implementation in terms of motion blur, ghosting and temporal stability.
      So far I've yet to see one without all of those (or at least at the noticeable levels). I'd take finer detail loss over ghosting/visible blue any day.

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      • #43
        oiaohm If that is the case with patent laws, they are begging for change. I know they are messed up in about every place on this planet, they usually work against competition regardless of what their purpose was on paper.

        Good point, I'm a bit skeptical about the possibility of FSR (as it is now) implementation in say DXVK, putting aside the rationale "we don't do funky stuff in translation layer", but that would be amazing if possible. The same issue is present in DLSS, plus the usuals - proprietary, closed only for nvidia etc.
        No one is expecting for FSR to make what's garbage graphics in some games look good, I wasn't clear about it, I'm talking about engines where you simply need to put some form post-processing in order to make it less aliased and "presentable", in such games, going from native resolution on displays looks even more ugly than in comparison to some other games for example. Good example of such engine would be "EGO" engine by Codemasters, where basically anything below 4x MSAA (in GRID series before 2019) looks terrible, no matter how high you go with resolution, and going outside of native makes it far worse.

        I like TAA, not sure what people have against it, FXAA is terrible, it makes image looks blury and it's basically useless "feature", for me personally, TAA implementation in GRID 2019 was good, and did work on AMD GPU, in combination with "target FPS" dynamic-scaling/resolution, it produces acceptable image quality at consistent and stable 60FPS.

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        • #44
          Originally posted by leipero View Post

          Good point, I'm a bit skeptical about the possibility of FSR (as it is now) implementation in say DXVK, putting aside the rationale "we don't do funky stuff in translation layer", but that would be amazing if possible.
          you probably dont need dxvk to implement anything since vulkan supports layers, this https://github.com/DadSchoorse/vkBasalt , Ive used it to apply CAS to skyrim running with dxvk, works pretty well, so long as FSR is just a shader, it wouldn't require anything really special to implement.

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          • #45
            Originally posted by flashmozzg View Post
            I don't get the TAA fad. It looks good on static screenshot but in practice I'd prefer even blurry FXAA over that crap. It's a shame game don't include at least SMAA by default.
            TAA retains better quality in motion than SMAA does I find, especially when motion blur is used, I honestly like TAA + SMAA, but that is preference. SMAA is shader based, so a post processing effect is fine, MSAA is trash gains for the preformance hit, TXAA is... meh IMO, I think it retains really good accuracy, but it is essentially just temporal MSAA. of course it all pales in comparison to various super sampling techniques, like DSR or whatever the engine uses. but not everyone has beefy pcs to use that

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            • #46
              Originally posted by 900k View Post

              you probably dont need dxvk to implement anything since vulkan supports layers, this https://github.com/DadSchoorse/vkBasalt , Ive used it to apply CAS to skyrim running with dxvk, works pretty well, so long as FSR is just a shader, it wouldn't require anything really special to implement.
              I don't know if FSR is just a shader, I wouldn't think so, because if it was, it wouldn't need to be implemented in games directly I assume. I guess it would be something like Radeon Image Sharpening if that is the case, and that works relatively well, but I assume it's not comparable to the FSR (otherwise FSR wouldn't make any sense). Solution that works similar to Image Sharpening with "FSR method" would be a preferable way for both AMD and users, because it wouldn't be limited by game developers. How possible is that, that's another question.

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              • #47
                Originally posted by leipero View Post
                oiaohm If that is the case with patent laws, they are begging for change. I know they are messed up in about every place on this planet, they usually work against competition regardless of what their purpose was on paper.
                The problem is what I stated is the case. Patent laws globally really do need major reforms.

                Originally posted by leipero View Post
                I like TAA, not sure what people have against it, FXAA is terrible, it makes image looks blury and it's basically useless "feature", for me personally, TAA implementation in GRID 2019 was good, and did work on AMD GPU, in combination with "target FPS" dynamic-scaling/resolution, it produces acceptable image quality at consistent and stable 60FPS.
                When TAA works it gives you as good as MSAA with lower compute cost when it does work you get ghosts.
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporal_anti-aliasing
                "Pixels sampled in past frames are blended with pixels sampled in the current frame to produce an anti-aliased image."
                This feature of temporal anti-aliasing is what causes ghosting. Particular games like forms of first person shooters ghosting is really bad feature that you must not have because it effects game play adversely. Depending on the game for how problematic ghosting is. There are games where TAA is just a no go.

                Originally posted by leipero View Post
                I don't know if FSR is just a shader, I wouldn't think so, because if it was, it wouldn't need to be implemented in games directly I assume. I guess it would be something like Radeon Image Sharpening if that is the case, and that works relatively well, but I assume it's not comparable to the FSR (otherwise FSR wouldn't make any sense). Solution that works similar to Image Sharpening with "FSR method" would be a preferable way for both AMD and users, because it wouldn't be limited by game developers. How possible is that, that's another question.
                https://gpuopen.com/fidelityfx-cas/#features
                FSR core upscale is a shader the engine type is "AMD FidelityFX Contrast Adaptive Sharpening" this is designed to attempt correct TAA issues its also designed to support the case that every frame is being upscale differently because it supports "Dynamic Resolution Scaling (DRS)" fun little feature.

                But there are other fidelityfx features that are used in the complete FSR solution. So it should be possible for someone todo a part FSR generically no matter the game.

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                • #48
                  oiaohm I agree with what you said about laws and TAA, that specific implementation of TAA really is as good if not better than 4xMSAA with minor performance cost, I can't say it's always the case, I'm not a "gamer" (person who plays a lot of different games) so my experience is fairly limited. Considering the fact that LCD displays in general have (usually tons of) ghosting (I yet have to see one that doesn't - like good old CRTs), I don't find it to be an issue. I also did read somwhere that TAA implements some sort of "motion edge manipulation" (my term, can't remember what was the name) where it actually helps in case of LCDs and their issues with motion image presentation, or maybe I mixed it with something else, but I'm quite positive it was about TAA. So yeah, in general, I would argue that in most cases ghosting is a non-issue, especially on LCD panels.

                  As for FSR, I really don't know much about it, so that's a good info. One thing is important to note, that unlike TAA, FSR doesn't combine information from previous frames and current frame to apply it, hence why it isn't as good at image reconstruction (it basically doesn't do it at current form) as other methods such as DLSS.
                  I saw other fidelityfx features, it's kinda nice to have things separate, so you apply things you want/need, as long as it isn't too much complications that would likely backfire (possibility for user error, hence not fulfilling whole potential of the methods combined).

                  Sort of off topic:
                  In video upscaling, there are different methods used by different applications and people, there are methods that are more "to the core" and do not introduce artificial "anything" really to make image looks "non natural", however, when we talk about "image quality" of such methods, the goal of those methods should not be "What is the ost precise method?", but "What does have the biggest effect in observable experience by the user" IMO. Take for example "A.I." used by Topaz for their "Video Enhancer", they are far away from the "most precise solution", but, in general "user impression", they are far above other methods in most cases, maybe only not for trained eye who seeks some sort of "artistic form" or whatever, but, for general use, you don't really need that.

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                  • #49
                    Originally posted by leipero View Post
                    oiaohm I agree with what you said about laws and TAA, that specific implementation of TAA really is as good if not better than 4xMSAA with minor performance cost, I can't say it's always the case, I'm not a "gamer" (person who plays a lot of different games) so my experience is fairly limited. Considering the fact that LCD displays in general have (usually tons of) ghosting (I yet have to see one that doesn't - like good old CRTs), I don't find it to be an issue. I also did read somwhere that TAA implements some sort of "motion edge manipulation" (my term, can't remember what was the name) where it actually helps in case of LCDs and their issues with motion image presentation, or maybe I mixed it with something else, but I'm quite positive it was about TAA. So yeah, in general, I would argue that in most cases ghosting is a non-issue, especially on LCD panels.
                    LCD panel ghosting make TAA ghosting worse not hide it. Why ghost from the TAA can end up reinforcing the LCD ghosting the result of this double ghost can be a ghost image that looks almost as clear as the correctly rendered leading to gamer error. This is why particular games with LCD ghosting+TAA ghosting is really bad and results in players of those games have a absolute hate of TAA. TAA is one of these things when it works it good when it does it really does not. Yes the CAS that is part of the FSR is designed to attempt to remove some of the TAA caused ghosting.

                    Originally posted by leipero View Post
                    As for FSR, I really don't know much about it, so that's a good info. One thing is important to note, that unlike TAA, FSR doesn't combine information from previous frames and current frame to apply it, hence why it isn't as good at image reconstruction (it basically doesn't do it at current form) as other methods such as DLSS. I saw other fidelityfx features, it's kinda nice to have things separate, so you apply things you want/need, as long as it isn't too much complications that would likely backfire (possibility for user error, hence not fulfilling whole potential of the methods combined).
                    There is a trade off doing reconstitution across frames that is ghosting. Sony upscaler is interesting as it using z information and profile data from multi rendering of the same frames instead of using previous frames this avoids the TAA ghost generation problem. Yes video enchancement of damage footage you are forced to look across multi frames because due to damage you are unlikely to be able to generate z data and you cannot do a sony of have the game run though at multi different resultions to tune upscaler. Sony for games with their upscaler is also doing reconstruction but without TAA.

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                    • #50
                      FSR may not be as good as DLSS, but its something we can play with on AMD and hopefully they continue to improve it. I have been holding off buying Horizon Zero Dawn and a couple of other games because the frame rate on my card is less than I would like, but now we have the option of FSR... I might actually buy the game now.

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