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Mesa 21.x Seems To Muck Up Gamers' Trust Factor For Counter-Strike: Global Offensive

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  • vans554
    replied
    Originally posted by thedukesd View Post

    Believe what you want. As long as the server sends information that is not actually needed by the client you can't prevent wall hacking.
    Now the poping in/out can't even be prevented starting from a particular ping value.



    You are 100% wrong here.

    There is a difference between trashing Valve and wanting them to improve. The fact that they don't look to want to improve is another discussion.
    Also the fact that I don't give much information about how to fix it has to do with the fact that Valve is greed (just look at their 30% cut).
    I also don't really give much information to people that should think a bit more, maybe just maybe I don't really want to write it all (the ones working at cheat tools sell them so I don't really want to help them get money... i'm willing to help for free an open-source project as long as they are willing to accept my help, but if they refuse my help in a way or another I will just move on, rest is entirely done based on the money offered by the other side, it's not me who made this world rotate around money).

    An yes if you ask me the entire math has to be done server side to prevent most of the cheating. Now the fact that I can't name a single one that didn't cheap out here is another discussion. Then to cover the fact that they cheap out add stupid anti-cheat stuff that ends up hurting the game performance. So basicaly the cost is moved to the player that sometimes even payed for the game... I don't talk here about Valve, this happens with every single one out there...

    As long as you keep too much stuff client side someone motivated enough will just have the game running in a virtual machine 1/pc 1, video output sent to virtual machine 2/pc 2 and here the stuff from the cheat tool is being added to the game (with stuff that is being processed from the router in front of virtual machine 1/pc 1). No anti-cheat tool will detect what is done on pc 2 because it has no access to what's done on pc 2 or router level...
    THREAD.

    Well said. The problem based on how the STEAM client and source_engine games look is Value "did" not have any good network engineers (except on the DOTA team). The anti-cheat measures are pretty much non-existent (clientside rootkits/kerneldrivers/userspace scanners are NOT anticheat no matter what other companies want you to believe, they just raise the bar from kiddie to average reverser to bypass), anyone who wants to cheat can easily put a proxy/packet router exactly as described to another instance or custom software to track all the positions of all the players on a 2nd monitor sitting on your desk (in case the valve anticheat goes as far as to take screenshots of everything open on your display, so you cannot overlay the game (with the second game that has the packets ran thru it that shows ESP) to be extra safe).

    Want good anti-cheat, code your game like Dota and you dont even need to ship an anticheat module.

    Leave a comment:


  • hsci
    replied
    Originally posted by fagnerln View Post

    If you play in a team, your mates will receive a message about you, there's two warnings, a yellow (bit lower) and red (a lot lower).

    I'm who reported to Mesa referring to the bug on CS git. To be fair, I felt bad by reporting, it wasn't my intention to cause annoyance, I was just appointing to a possible error to investigating, but look like I created some frustration. I play with the same people, and suddenly they start to receive red warnings about me (they use Windows), the only thing that happened is that I updated my system (to mesa 21) between the days, so I notice that issue on github and reported to them, as there's some Valve's employees collaborating with mesa, maybe they can help.

    To be fair, my suspect isn't glthread, it was the radeonsi_clamp_div_by_zero which was added too, but again, I don't have how to proof.

    Concluding: I created a new account and disabled those variables, and my trust on this new account is high. So now I have an account with 10 years, 1000 hours of CS with bad trust and a new with higher trust. This system is a joke.[1]

    Valve helps a lot Linux gaming overall, but the CSGO development treat us like shit, they can't even fix the -nojoy issue for years, they can't even make VAC support Proton, now some rolling release distros can't run the game (I'm running it on Flatpak) and now this. So yeah, this is sad.

    [1] That's why I don't believe in Steam Linux percentage, my friends have a lot of accounts on Windows, I bet that it can inflate the numbers.
    I think the correct term for software which acts like this Anit-Cheat stuff is "Snakeoil".

    Leave a comment:


  • thedukesd
    replied
    Originally posted by randomsalad View Post
    Sound effects like footsteps, gunshots and explosions require the client to know the source location, in order to do proper 3D audio calculations.
    CS:GO doesn't uses a somehow realistic audio system (how sound propagates, how sound is reflected). Something like that is far from being easy to do (whoever will want to do it will have to invest a lot of money because particular research for such project will be needed).

    If you don't simulate close to reality the sound then sorry to say but if the sound source is located 2-3m away from the actual location is the same thing because you just don't simulate right the sound from the begining so you will almost always be wrong.

    CS:GO is not a war simulator, it's an arcade shooter.
    (if it was a simulator it would had let you decide if you want to play in socks or not, while playing in socks can hurt your feet it also make you do considerable less noise to the point that you make no real noise while walking...)
    Last edited by thedukesd; 04 May 2021, 09:13 AM.

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  • randomsalad
    replied
    Originally posted by thedukesd View Post

    If you code the game properly it's impossible to wallhack. Sure you can make the textures transparent but it will show nothing because the server will plain not send what's on the other side of the wall to the clients.
    Current situation is the result of being cheap (because a proper made game will have higher load on the server).
    Yes it's impossible to prevent all cheating but wallhacking can be prevented. In the end you can code an AI that will be faster and better than what any human can achieve.

    Wonder when they will understand that to prevent cheating you need not to trust the client and to not trust the client the client basicaly doesn't need to have access to anything that is not needed and can be used to cheat (in this case what's behind the walls is an information not needed to clients but usefull to cheat).
    Sound effects like footsteps, gunshots and explosions require the client to know the source location, in order to do proper 3D audio calculations. It'd be difficult to fully shutdown wallhacks, and you would still need to transmit the other players' positions to the client when they're within the vicinity, like almost around the corner, since it would just be bizarre for the legitimate player if he turns a corner and another player just pops into existence after the server determines that the players can now see eachother. And when that happens, you're giving up information to the wallhacker. You can't really prevent it.

    Only way to truly prevent wallhacks would be forcing all players to use something like Stadia, but then, uh, you're using Stadia.

    Leave a comment:


  • thedukesd
    replied
    Originally posted by JonnyRobbie View Post
    You do realize that they have a system addressing exactly this and have been there for several years. They absolutely do have an occlusion-based anti-wh. It's just at some point, they have to start rendering the player if not only just because you cannot see an eneme, you can hear an enemy, so the positional info has to be transmitted to you anyways. But most importantly, they have to prevent popping up, which was a problem when they first introduced this method.
    Believe what you want. As long as the server sends information that is not actually needed by the client you can't prevent wall hacking.
    Now the poping in/out can't even be prevented starting from a particular ping value.

    Originally posted by JonnyRobbie View Post
    you can hear an enemy, so the positional info has to be transmitted to you anyways.
    You are 100% wrong here.

    There is a difference between trashing Valve and wanting them to improve. The fact that they don't look to want to improve is another discussion.
    Also the fact that I don't give much information about how to fix it has to do with the fact that Valve is greed (just look at their 30% cut).
    I also don't really give much information to people that should think a bit more, maybe just maybe I don't really want to write it all (the ones working at cheat tools sell them so I don't really want to help them get money... i'm willing to help for free an open-source project as long as they are willing to accept my help, but if they refuse my help in a way or another I will just move on, rest is entirely done based on the money offered by the other side, it's not me who made this world rotate around money).

    An yes if you ask me the entire math has to be done server side to prevent most of the cheating. Now the fact that I can't name a single one that didn't cheap out here is another discussion. Then to cover the fact that they cheap out add stupid anti-cheat stuff that ends up hurting the game performance. So basicaly the cost is moved to the player that sometimes even payed for the game... I don't talk here about Valve, this happens with every single one out there...

    As long as you keep too much stuff client side someone motivated enough will just have the game running in a virtual machine 1/pc 1, video output sent to virtual machine 2/pc 2 and here the stuff from the cheat tool is being added to the game (with stuff that is being processed from the router in front of virtual machine 1/pc 1). No anti-cheat tool will detect what is done on pc 2 because it has no access to what's done on pc 2 or router level...
    Last edited by thedukesd; 04 May 2021, 04:59 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • stormcrow
    replied
    Originally posted by piorunz View Post
    Don't play stupid DRM games, problem solved.
    Good luck with that.

    Leave a comment:


  • skeevy420
    replied
    Originally posted by piorunz View Post
    Don't play stupid DRM games, problem solved.
    I think some form of DRM for online games is acceptable. Cheaters suck.

    Leave a comment:


  • piorunz
    replied
    Don't play stupid DRM games, problem solved.

    Leave a comment:


  • smitty3268
    replied
    Originally posted by mackal View Post
    Random guess, Valve knows how many threads they expect the game to use, this was based on older mesa versions. When the thread count doesn't match, this likely could be from cheats running their own thread, but since it's not fool proof, it just affects trust factor.
    Some anti-cheat software uses timing as well, I believe. Run some GL commands, and if it returns instantly it's because the commands are just being ignored rather than executed - except in this case, it's being returned immediately because that stuff is thrown onto another thread.

    Leave a comment:


  • Davidovitch
    replied
    I've been playing with MESA_GLTHREAD on for months, but flipping that back to FALSE today, after reading this article, suddenly made me end up with shouting and insulting dudes again in competitive matchmaking. Could be a coincidence of course, or maybe the change is what triggered a lower trust factor? So either from False to True or the other way around?

    Leave a comment:

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