Steam On Linux Ticks Lower For October 2020

[ascaris]

For the first time in 2 years I had to use Windows and logged in to steam and guess what? Steam survey poped up. It never pops in Linux, in the 10 years of use or so. Something's not right.

I've had the Steam survey pop up multiple times in Linux, on multiple PCs. Always done my part to stand up and be counted!

As for Windows... I haven't used Steam anywhere but Linux, so I can't say how often I would have received the surveys there. I was for years very much opposed to Steam, as I saw it as a Microsoft-like DRM and potential spying platform, and I wished to support neither of those. I saw Valve as being a smaller, more focused version of MS, Apple, or Google, all villains in my mind. I've certainly changed my mind about Valve (though not the other three). Without DRM, a lot of the titles that are available on Steam would not be, and that's the decision of the developers/publishers of those titles.

Steam has done more to make Linux a viable gaming platform than anyone I can think of, and that in turn has meant that Linux is already a usable gaming platform for me, not just one that might be usable someday if things keep progressing. I'm not into the newest AAA mega-titles (I don't know what half of them are, and the other half that I can't help but know about them because no one can shut up about them (Fortnite, Overwatch, looking in your general direction) do not interest me at all.

Perhaps I have been lucky, but everything I've been interested in since my move to Linux has worked very well over here in Antarctica, whether it be a Windows game from Proton or WINE or a native Linux one. I've yet to see some let's plays of a game and think I'd like to try it, only to discover that it has no native Linux version and doesn't work (or work well enough) on WINE/Proton either. If it does eventually happen, I know there are plenty more titles that do work that I would enjoy, and certainly enough of them to use up all the available free time I have. If those ones that do not work now begin working down the road, all the better!

[b8e5n]

For the first time in 2 years I had to use Windows and logged in to steam and guess what? Steam survey poped up. It never pops in Linux, in the 10 years of use or so. Something's not right.

Maybe not related to yours, but i haven't had any in years. Last week, removed big picture as default when starting steam, and it requested me to do the survey! Let's see if next month it asks me again.

[oiaohm]

oiaohmYou heavily implied that older kernels get new AMD/Intel GPU drivers which is just pure bullcrap. I don't know a single distro which uses DKMS versions of the said drivers in older kernels, so again, bullcrap (if there are such distros they are rare as fuck).

I did point a link to debian you also find it with arch. Hardware enablement in the really old LTS stuff. You know the branches that are maintained for 20+ years on the same kernels to run clivil infrastructure. Since some distribution do it the performance effects are know of the DKMS route.

You say installing older Mesa releases in Linux distros is easy which is again bullcrap. 99.99% of people in the world won't be able to do that. And instead of admitting that NVIDIA supports Linux better than Linux supports itself, you say that NVIDIA doesn't support freaking Wayland?

To play particular games well I need gamescope to work correctly. Gamescope even when you host graphical is X11 still needs XWayland support that Nvidia does not provide.

I don't give a fuck about Wayland. You're so full of crap it's just laughable.

Really 90%+ of that list is superceeded software when you move to wayland. Like redshift does not work but the wayland compositors do it. Yes you have a handful of upset developers who said they would not do the work to support wayland changes but they are in fact in the minority.

https://github.com/emersion/xdg-desktop-portal-wlr/wiki/Screencast-Compatibility

Yes you have like the obs developers making out that xdg-desktop-portal is not being developed as generic solution for wayland when it is. Of course deciding to make something generic and get all the code in place so it works takes time.

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=385880

Its like the bug on that list about global menus not working. The newest version of KDE with Wayland global menus is back. This was fixing the compositor. Yes that is next years distribution KDE.

You also said Windows has the same issues, again bullcrap. On Windows I can install a ton of older AMD/Intel/NVIDIA driver releases with zero issues.

This is head in sand you are not comparing Windows to Windows performance. So see different kernel version cause differences in performance. Windows does have the same problem here.

With W10 there's an additional layer of requirement, i.e. some Windows releases feature a new graphics stack but if you're on Windows 10 LTSC for instance - you can install the last three years of drivers with zero problems.

LTSC is not a gamer after performance of windows. Its not just new features in the graphics stack there are performance fixes you are missing sticking to LTSC.

As for open source Intel/AMD drivers plus Mesa - again, eat the shit provided by your distro or go fuck off.

No this is missing that it doubled sided. Nvidia from time to time will not allow you to update your X11 server or kernel because if you do the driver will fail. Yes I run on some of my system 5 to 6 years old graphics cards. Not being able to upgrade kernel locks you out from the performance gains.

Stupid as it sounds performance forces you to upgrade kernel. Nvidia blocks you from that from time to time. Nvidia you have a old card it can block you from upgrading X11 and the kernel because Nvidia has decided the card is no longer supported lot sooner than AMD or Intel do with open source drivers.

Please note you said last 3 years of drivers zero problem. I need hardware support for about 8 years. Right out past 15 years the Intel and AMD drivers for their devices are still getting new features when you upgrade.

There are reasons why the kernel drivers are by most distributions recommend as update the kernel even that DKMS does exist for AMD and Intel in their distribution. The reason is replacing the 1) replacing complete Linux kernel rarely causes any user space issues and 2) that in fact gets the best performance out the open source drivers. Same thing with newer kernels with Windows result in Nvidia drivers performing better so this is not a unique feature because as kernel operations are improved the effectiveness of the drivers running using kernel parts improves as well.

Mesa is replaceable by AMD pro drivers with AMD if required. This is commonly not done because there is normally not enough gain to be worth your time.

There is a performance problem you are ignoring as well as how long Nvidia supports their cards for. The performance problem really does force you to use as new as kernel as you can in most cases.

[birdie]

oiaohm

You heavily implied that older kernels get new AMD/Intel GPU drivers which is just pure bullcrap. I don't know a single distro which uses DKMS versions of the said drivers in older kernels, so again, bullcrap (if there are such distros they are rare as fuck). You say installing older Mesa releases in Linux distros is easy which is again bullcrap. 99.99% of people in the world won't be able to do that. And instead of admitting that NVIDIA supports Linux better than Linux supports itself, you say that NVIDIA doesn't support freaking Wayland? I don't give a fuck about Wayland. You're so full of crap it's just laughable.

You also said Windows has the same issues, again bullcrap. On Windows I can install a ton of older AMD/Intel/NVIDIA driver releases with zero issues. With W10 there's an additional layer of requirement, i.e. some Windows releases feature a new graphics stack but if you're on Windows 10 LTSC for instance - you can install the last three years of drivers with zero problems. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but Windows is a 1000 times better as a gaming platform. And Linux with binary NVIDIA drivers is OKish. As for open source Intel/AMD drivers plus Mesa - again, eat the shit provided by your distro or go fuck off.

[f0rmat]

Bad luck: there have been periods of ISPs trying to form a cartel. Not too long ago, they all tried to shift the billing cycle to 4 weeks, to make customers pay for the equivalent of 13 months instead of 12. Or maybe it was many years ago when FTTC was still new?

Consumer associations have done their wonders and now things have stabilized around 30 € for unlimited data up to 100 Mbps, billed on the same day every month. Actual speed depends of course on infrastructure, but even small towns of 10k people have FTTC nowadays (copper between cabinet and modem).

Some ISPs are also more transparent than others, I've found Fastweb to be the most decent. You are also guaranteed by law to be able to use a modem other than the one provided by the ISP (which is mandatory, since you're asked to plug it in when you call them for maintenance or troubleshooting). When you decide to cancel your subscription, there are no additional charges mandated by the ISP's modem loan (since activation typically does not have a setup cost either), you just have to give it back.
It took a while, but we got there. All that's needed is a government that doesn't obstruct pro-consumer laws, competition between ISPs, and consumer associations/anti-trust bodies.

As an aside, in Italian parlance, Veneto is a region, not a province. If you haven't already, I hope you will someday be able to enjoy central and southern regions as well.

You are correct about Veneto being a region, but when I was there (I left in December and moved to Bayern Germany - got out just before COVID devastated the country), it was commonly referred to as the Veneto Province by other English speaking people that I worked with or the Veneto Plain when speaking informally about it as a geographical area as opposed to the actual political entity. And I have been to south and central Italy: Venezia (north), Firenze, Milano (north), Naples (do not remember the Italian spelling), Assisi, Rome, and my favorite, the ruins of Pompeii in Pompei. The Italian Alps are also beautiful - the Asiago area is gorgeous. Tuscany was also beautiful, but I did not get much time to spend there. But I really regret not getting a chance to go to Sardinia.

[chocolate]

Wow, that is good. That was not my experience in the Veneto province. I paid about 70 euro a month (average - sometimes I was billed for every two months, sometimes every three months - I never understood the Italian billing cycles except for my monthly rent). The only option I had fiber optic from ISP to the street and then DSL from the street into the house.

Bad luck: there have been periods of ISPs trying to form a cartel. Not too long ago, they all tried to shift the billing cycle to 4 weeks, to make customers pay for the equivalent of 13 months instead of 12. Or maybe it was many years ago when FTTC was still new?

Consumer associations have done their wonders and now things have stabilized around 30 € for unlimited data up to 100 Mbps, billed on the same day every month. Actual speed depends of course on infrastructure, but even small towns of 10k people have FTTC nowadays (copper between cabinet and modem).

Some ISPs are also more transparent than others, I've found Fastweb to be the most decent. You are also guaranteed by law to be able to use a modem other than the one provided by the ISP (which is mandatory, since you're asked to plug it in when you call them for maintenance or troubleshooting). When you decide to cancel your subscription, there are no additional charges mandated by the ISP's modem loan (since activation typically does not have a setup cost either), you just have to give it back.
It took a while, but we got there. All that's needed is a government that doesn't obstruct pro-consumer laws, competition between ISPs, and consumer associations/anti-trust bodies.

As an aside, in Italian parlance, Veneto is a region, not a province. If you haven't already, I hope you will someday be able to enjoy central and southern regions as well.

[f0rmat]

Wow. You can get an unlimited data connection averaging at 80 Mbps down (up to 100 depending on FTTC/FTTH), 20 Mbps up, for ~30 € a month in Italy. Some ISPs also offer mobile plans for ~5 € more, with unlimited data in 4G, or at least 50 GB. That's ~40 USD a month for unlimited data via cable and practically unlimited data via 4G.

I'm surprised people aren't migrating away from the US en masse.

You essentially have close to no access to information (3 GB can easily be consumed on a bunch of videos alone) and are depriving yourself of a medium that is increasingly culturally relevant (I consider some videogames to be as important as classic literature for individual growth). You have my solidarity.

Wow, that is good. That was not my experience in the Veneto province. I paid about 70 euro a month (average - sometimes I was billed for every two months, sometimes every three months - I never understood the Italian billing cycles except for my monthly rent). The only option I had fiber optic from ISP to the street and then DSL from the street into the house.

[oiaohm]

And this is just lies. Stable kernels receive fixes for critical bugs (not even all of them) but not new features or major rewrites.

This is you being wrong I said the driver backported not part of.

git diff linux-5.4.74/drivers/gpu/drm/i915 linux-5.8.18/drivers/gpu/drm/i915 > 1.diff
ls -la 1.diff
-rw-r--r--. 1 root root 6229728 Nov 4 23:22 1.diff

6MB patch for two kernels released on the same date. And don't get me started on how much different these two drivers are:

110 files created, 613KB.
37 files removed, 73KB.
333 files modified, 5300KB.

Intel and AMD drivers are 100% coupled to kernel releases, there's zero back-porting going on.

Linux as a gaming OS is just pure crap. Again NVIDIA is the only vendor which offers true compatibility with tons of kernels and X.org versions while AMD and Intel users must cope with what they are given.

Then you with a whole stack of bull crap.

https://wiki.debian.org/AMDGPUDriverOnStretchAndBuster2

Reality is DKMS versions of AMD and Intel drivers exist for all stable kernels based of the current branches of those drivers. So at kernel module you are not stuck to the AMD or Intel module that comes with your kernel. Yes you do have some fo the same like Nvidia cat fights where the DKMS modules don't work with every kernel out there.

Intel and AMD don't push the fact they have a DKMS module options. Yes AMD and Intel provide a DKMS module option and not a nice way to update Mesa. Nvidia updates the user space and if applications break your bad luck.

So the difference is not where you are making it out birdie and never has been. AMD and Intel also supports tons of kernel versions with current version of their drivers just does not advertise it. Of course of someone benchmarks AMD driver current driver on old kernel is going to perform worse. Most people wanting to update their drivers are also after performance.

[birdie]

git diff linux-5.4.74/drivers/gpu/drm/i915 linux-5.8.18/drivers/gpu/drm/i915 > 1.diff
ls -la 1.diff
-rw-r--r--. 1 root root 6229728 Nov  4 23:22 1.diff

6MB patch for two kernels released on the same date. And don't get me started on how much different these two drivers are:

110 files created, 613KB.
37 files removed, 73KB.
333 files modified, 5300KB.

Intel and AMD drivers are 100% coupled to kernel releases, there's zero back-porting going on.

Linux as a gaming OS is just pure crap. Again NVIDIA is the only vendor which offers true compatibility with tons of kernels and X.org versions while AMD and Intel users must cope with what they are given.

[birdie]

Most people miss that drivers AMD and Intel drivers in Linux kernel get back-ported to all stable kernel.

And this is just lies. Stable kernels receive fixes for critical bugs (not even all of them) but not new features or major rewrites.