Bioware's Dragon Age Petition for Linux?

[Svartalf]

I understand that from your exchanges with Stan. In a way, I agree but I think Bioware might be a tad bit lenient with these things.

Heh... It makes for bad PR, doing that... But that'd be their issue, not mine.

Oh yes, they want numbers. People who post those 'I want a Linux port' and those 'Me too' don't really mean much. In the end, I think it's the company's own market study that ends up dictating where the game goes. On which end will they generate revenues. That's my opinion.

You think they even do their own market research? Heh... They go off of numbers that Microsoft and the likes of IDC put out on "installed base", never mind that they don't ding MS' numbers for the stated Linux numbers, being that most of those Linux installs mean the Windows install is technically no more. Perhaps the biggest players do real market research on their own- but it's my understanding that they outsource that sort of thing to people like Yankee, Parker, IDC, et al.

On Loki, I really think they should have ended up working their own games. Original content on Linux that have the same level of quality as those Windows commercial games would be lovely, but well more dreaming from me.

It's easier said than done, I'm afraid. And I wholeheartedly agree with the thought. Indie development is painful and expensive in most cases. Unless you're lucky, a title will set you back at least a quarter of a million or more for what the market considers an acceptable title. That's tools, labor, etc. Now, you can do it as a hobby project- it might cost you less that way, but it will take a lot longer in many cases- and may never really get done. It's why a group of developers that were a spinoff of a couple of Loki game developers and their friends never made the next MMORPG. I was the network stack guy for that little project. It never quite got off the ground.

Sometimes you need the idiotic ones to see what the clever ones are.

Actually, most of the idiotic ones were people trying to be clever.

Brilliance is a different beast. I've seen it when I was working on the Utah-GLX project. If it weren't for a brilliant, but truly EVIL hack done by none other than John Carmack, the RagePRO support might never have gotten off the ground the same way it did. With the RagePRO, you just dropped the driver in the machine and if you had enough free system RAM, it would just simply work. No configuration. Worked cleanly every time. I've done a few things like that myself, though not in the games industry.

People consider KotOR 2 better than 1? That's news to me. I thought the Darth Treya part was less than half-cooked and the ending was far more atrocious. It's not a game that should have been out there. Now, I totally skipped NWN 2 because it was also by Obsidian. I just learned never to trust that house. NWN was all cool. NWN 2 seemed like a cash-in.

Yeah, some people seem to like swill in the online forums. What's worse is that this nasty little piece of tripe is still on the store shelves at places like Wal-Mart, bundled with KOTOR. Heh... Sell a piece of toxic waste with the good stuff, I guess.

Ah yes, the secret of satisfaction in life, lowered expectations. To be honest, I tend to think Linux ports don't help expand the Linux game market though it does help. I think original content is what will push. Me and my idealistic thoughts... call me crazy.

Original content and more simultaneous releases will do it. The only problem is that you have to convince a game dev studio to DO it for Linux only or as an initial release for Linux. Or form your own. That's NOT a simple or easy task, believe me. I know, I've been trying for some 4 or so years now.

[niniendowarrior]

Well, I guess it's due to me being an old fart in the computer industry. Anything posted with a company logo or account associated with the post constitutes an official statement of said company unless there's a disclaimer with each posting- and even then you can get into trouble with it. I'd have gotten my hand slapped by a customer if I'd have done that- if not right away, eventually.

I understand that from your exchanges with Stan. In a way, I agree but I think Bioware might be a tad bit lenient with these things.

All too often it just results in rolled eyes- and nothing else. A petition doesn't translate into a purchase in most cases. And, they're in the business of making money. They want numbers- and a petition almost never gives them those. There's not usually enough signatories to give them the profitability numbers to make a good decision for a port by themselves. Typically, companies like LGP, Runesoft, etc. pay something on the order of 5-25k and possibly more to just have the rights to LOOK at the source code of a given title. That doesn't even go into what it costs to PUBLISH the title in owed royalties. Loki went under by signing too many deals that were in the 20k range and doing them too quickly to at least break-even with sales on them.

Oh yes, they want numbers. People who post those 'I want a Linux port' and those 'Me too' don't really mean much. In the end, I think it's the company's own market study that ends up dictating where the game goes. On which end will they generate revenues. That's my opinion.

On Loki, I really think they should have ended up working their own games. Original content on Linux that have the same level of quality as those Windows commercial games would be lovely, but well more dreaming from me.

Yeah, I know what you mean there. But there's good development ideas, and then just plain idiotic ones. I've seen my fair share of both- and more often than not, the idiotic ones end up panning out to be those "quick" or "clever" answers.

Sometimes you need the idiotic ones to see what the clever ones are.

I can't believe people consider IT to be better than KOTOR. There was a semblance of a plot and storyline with some small branching (It was way, way too linear and formulaic- it could have been much better.)- it's good enough that I wouldn't complain one bit about someone stepping up and doing a Linux version of it. KOTOR2... Oh, man... It needs a solid MST3K-ing or a Rocky Horror Picture Show audience participation session... I kept asking myself, "Is that all there IS to this?!" at the endgame with Darth Treya... It was worse than rushed, it was unfinished in the form they shipped it in. Small consolation would be that Obsidian did a better job with NWN2 (...although how much is open to quite a bit of debate... ).

The big consolation for me with the whole thing is that I didn't need to buy the thing to find out how bad it really was.

People consider KotOR 2 better than 1? That's news to me. I thought the Darth Treya part was less than half-cooked and the ending was far more atrocious. It's not a game that should have been out there. Now, I totally skipped NWN 2 because it was also by Obsidian. I just learned never to trust that house. NWN was all cool. NWN 2 seemed like a cash-in.

Again, you keep doing that- don't let this cynical old fart dissuade you from that. I've been kind of burned about that sort of thing, so I set my expectations summarily LOW and then I'm very pleasantly surprised when someone does the right thing these days.

Ah yes, the secret of satisfaction in life, lowered expectations. To be honest, I tend to think Linux ports don't help expand the Linux game market though it does help. I think original content is what will push. Me and my idealistic thoughts... call me crazy.

[Svartalf]

Apparently so! ...although I wouldn't be as hard on Stan as you.

Well, I guess it's due to me being an old fart in the computer industry. Anything posted with a company logo or account associated with the post constitutes an official statement of said company unless there's a disclaimer with each posting- and even then you can get into trouble with it. I'd have gotten my hand slapped by a customer if I'd have done that- if not right away, eventually.

Cheers! Actually, it's not a very popular point of view here. I think for other people, posting a petition is much better than doing nothing at all. I just think that in most cases it does amount to nothing.

All too often it just results in rolled eyes- and nothing else. A petition doesn't translate into a purchase in most cases. And, they're in the business of making money. They want numbers- and a petition almost never gives them those. There's not usually enough signatories to give them the profitability numbers to make a good decision for a port by themselves. Typically, companies like LGP, Runesoft, etc. pay something on the order of 5-25k and possibly more to just have the rights to LOOK at the source code of a given title. That doesn't even go into what it costs to PUBLISH the title in owed royalties. Loki went under by signing too many deals that were in the 20k range and doing them too quickly to at least break-even with sales on them.

I would say it didn't make the Linux version anymore harder than it is. I think it just threw a perception...

Yeah, I know what you mean there. But there's good development ideas, and then just plain idiotic ones. I've seen my fair share of both- and more often than not, the idiotic ones end up panning out to be those "quick" or "clever" answers.

KotOR 2 was a real disaster.

I can't believe people consider IT to be better than KOTOR. There was a semblance of a plot and storyline with some small branching (It was way, way too linear and formulaic- it could have been much better.)- it's good enough that I wouldn't complain one bit about someone stepping up and doing a Linux version of it. KOTOR2... Oh, man... It needs a solid MST3K-ing or a Rocky Horror Picture Show audience participation session... I kept asking myself, "Is that all there IS to this?!" at the endgame with Darth Treya... It was worse than rushed, it was unfinished in the form they shipped it in. Small consolation would be that Obsidian did a better job with NWN2 (...although how much is open to quite a bit of debate... ).

The big consolation for me with the whole thing is that I didn't need to buy the thing to find out how bad it really was.

Perhaps we won't see a Linux port. I'd like to believe Bioware might surprise us. *Keeps dreaming*

Again, you keep doing that- don't let this cynical old fart dissuade you from that. I've been kind of burned about that sort of thing, so I set my expectations summarily LOW and then I'm very pleasantly surprised when someone does the right thing these days.

[niniendowarrior]

Considering that Stan's an employee, even if he's talking just as himself, if it's in the forum with that BioWare "nametag" on, he's effectively speaking as the company, even if he doesn't have the authority to do so. You'll note I've not directly mentioned any of my current employers in any of my conversations here where it was my opinion. I've mentioned some of them (Yes, I've several- the joys of trying to get your company funded, doing consulting work, etc... )- but I've avoided associating my ravings and not-so-humble opinions with any of them. Stan unfortunately must have skipped the day they covered that in school..

Apparently so! ...although I wouldn't be as hard on Stan as you.

Well, then, we're of the same opinions on that subject. Heh... I just wish we could get more people to listen to us on that one...

Cheers! Actually, it's not a very popular point of view here. I think for other people, posting a petition is much better than doing nothing at all. I just think that in most cases it does amount to nothing.

You don't go and do what he did. Ever. It's not professional conduct. There is a reason I don't associate my own not-so-humble
opinion with my respective employers and clients. And it's not so rare, my friend. All one has to do is look at iD or Epic to know that isn't the case- and even Ankh was that way until their crunch period and they just needed a little help to straighten it out. I don't care if they didn't think in those terms- just don't do stupid things that make it harder to make a Linux version.

I would say it didn't make the Linux version anymore harder than it is. I think it just threw a perception...

Now, they said something very similar about KOTOR- and there's little in it that would have precluded doing something identical to NWN for it. No, I don't own it. Wouldn't have even touched it save for my needing to do so to help my current main client get something fixed on their product line in regards to that game and KOTOR2 (UGH... Give me KOTOR over KOTOR2. The thing wasn't complete in any stretch of the imagination...). Between my past experiences and what has passed before from BioWare, I don't think we'll see much from them unless there's a radical change within the next 6 months in the overall market picture. I'd like to be proven wrong- believe me, I'd love little more than that in this case.

KotOR 2 was a real disaster. Perhaps we won't see a Linux port. I'd like to believe Bioware might surprise us. *Keeps dreaming*

[Svartalf]

Yeah, I know what Stan wrote and I thought he jumped the gun there, but I thought after all the apologies that were traded I thought things just became an argument for or against Linux. That's my opinion.

Considering that Stan's an employee, even if he's talking just as himself, if it's in the forum with that BioWare "nametag" on, he's effectively speaking as the company, even if he doesn't have the authority to do so. You'll note I've not directly mentioned any of my current employers in any of my conversations here where it was my opinion. I've mentioned some of them (Yes, I've several- the joys of trying to get your company funded, doing consulting work, etc... )- but I've avoided associating my ravings and not-so-humble opinions with any of them. Stan unfortunately must have skipped the day they covered that in school..

I posted on a thread a while back here telling people that posting a petition thread for a Linux port isn't likely to go anywhere. I don't quite remember the thread title though.

Well, then, we're of the same opinions on that subject. Heh... I just wish we could get more people to listen to us on that one...

To each his own. I respect your skepticism and I mostly can understand why. I, personally, keep my hopes up though.

Please do. I'm cynical, because I've first hand knowledge of what I've spoken of in various forums. Of Loki's missteps. Of what actually happened with Quake 3:Arena for Linux. Of NWN, or rather the lack of an official version for us. All insider knowledge. Either as an ISV for Loki, an ISV for NVidia and ATI/AMD, a consultant for one of the game porting companies, or as a consultant to several different companies providing Linux hardware support for things like iWARP channel adapters or for providing a Linux version of a commercial app.

Been at this sort of thing for quite a long time. About eight to ten years of it, in fact. I'm cynical because I've been on the front lines in my own way for a loooong while.

Well, I thought you read into it too much. In spite of what your opinion of how a company employee should act with regards to its forums, I think Stan just posted as himself. And I honestly think it's very rare for a game studio to plan both a Windows and Linux client from the get go. So, I wouldn't actually expect the Linux client to be in the works right now.

You don't go and do what he did. Ever. It's not professional conduct. There is a reason I don't associate my own not-so-humble
opinion with my respective employers and clients. And it's not so rare, my friend. All one has to do is look at iD or Epic to know that isn't the case- and even Ankh was that way until their crunch period and they just needed a little help to straighten it out. I don't care if they didn't think in those terms- just don't do stupid things that make it harder to make a Linux version.

Now, they said something very similar about KOTOR- and there's little in it that would have precluded doing something identical to NWN for it. No, I don't own it. Wouldn't have even touched it save for my needing to do so to help my current main client get something fixed on their product line in regards to that game and KOTOR2 (UGH... Give me KOTOR over KOTOR2. The thing wasn't complete in any stretch of the imagination...). Between my past experiences and what has passed before from BioWare, I don't think we'll see much from them unless there's a radical change within the next 6 months in the overall market picture. I'd like to be proven wrong- believe me, I'd love little more than that in this case.

[niniendowarrior]

I was more referring to the attitude espoused by the thread and how they just simply cut it off at 10 screens- PERIOD. Just when the discussion was getting interesting. I give respect where respect is due- I DO happen to work on a consultant basis for a commercial company producing games for Linux. I'm waiting for the first title to go gold and I'm about to probably be in a position to go back mostly full-time on the other two games I've got responsibility over and shove them out the door with the same quality that you've all come to expect from them.

Very cool to hear that. I wanted to get into Linux game development, but seeing how it's already difficult to get into the business itself... *shrugs shoulders*

As for respect- they've got it. It's just that they did something mildly disrespectful to us there; and the respect they have from me doesn't get them any slack on that regard. If they did what they did in that thread to the Windows crowd they'd be in trouble. But they'll do it to us. Think about it.

Yeah, I know what Stan wrote and I thought he jumped the gun there, but I thought after all the apologies that were traded I thought things just became an argument for or against Linux. That's my opinion.

Which thread would that be? I must not have seen that one.

I posted on a thread a while back here telling people that posting a petition thread for a Linux port isn't likely to go anywhere. I don't quite remember the thread title though.

Don't be sure of it. We were "lucky" to get NWN the way we got it.

To each his own. I respect your skepticism and I mostly can understand why. I, personally, keep my hopes up though.

There could have been an official version of it but the BoD of both Bioware and Atari nixed the deal in the end. When I hear, "you're going to miss out..." it means to me they're not giving it even a single thought in all honesty- and in a way that's not likely to have a version offered, official or unofficial, for Linux.

Well, I thought you read into it too much. In spite of what your opinion of how a company employee should act with regards to its forums, I think Stan just posted as himself. And I honestly think it's very rare for a game studio to plan both a Windows and Linux client from the get go. So, I wouldn't actually expect the Linux client to be in the works right now.

Heh... There's a reason for why I posted the way I did.

They get kudos for doing NWN and at least giving out a way to play it on Linux in the end. I'm ever grateful. It's why we were trying to have a discussion about DA- I was keen on the idea of a possible new game from them.

They don't get kudos for the game Stanley was playing. He was saying that you'll miss out if we don't make a Linux version and you won't buy- and it's a great game.

Sorry, I don't play that game- EVER. I don't give a flip by and of itself if it's a great game- if it's not on a platform or system I either choose to have or already have, being a great game means NOTHING to me. Trying to convince me to change my position there by way of that it's going to be a great game and I'll miss out is garbage. It's not giving me the respect that one in that position should be giving to a potential customer- so why should I be all respectful to them with that sort of attitude? We get the same treatment from Blizzard and a bunch of other companies- just because they did NWN doesn't get them off the hook when they go about it all that way.

If they'd have said, "we don't know", or "it's not going to happen because of decision 'X'" it'd have gotten them the respectful "Fine. Thanks for NWN, but I'll pass on DA because I'm not interested because of no Linux support at all..." instead of what happened.

In the end, it was all okay in the discussion and the later on threads that got spawned (there's one with 7 pages going right now...). They got the point I was trying to make and they openly said "we don't know" instead of the "You're going to miss out..." that Stanley led with.

Well, alls well that ends well. I mean, in forum terms. Well, I understand your point. There's no point in buying it if you don't have the platform to run it. I don't know if they were trying to convince you to still get it, but I think it just got a lot more tense in that thread.

My respect for their NWN port remains and I think it's one company that knows there is some form of Linux gaming out there. On DA, I really think there's not going to be one at launch but I really think somewhere down the road, maybe. Differences of opinions.

[Svartalf]

Will the length of the thread, at 10 or 100 screens, really change anything? At the end of the day, if they were going to be swayed by a forum thread, they'd be swayed by now, and if not, the thread is irrelevant.

The only way for them to know there's interest is to show it. It might not sway them this round, but it might next one- as long as they're being nice, they're not explicitly saying "NO" to us, and we're interested in what might be a cool game, we ought to have a presence there. Having said this, I have no illusions that we're going to get a Linux version out of them at this point- it's not terribly likely with some of the commentary from the Bioware people. I'd love to be surprised by them, but...

[Synergy6]

Will the length of the thread, at 10 or 100 screens, really change anything? At the end of the day, if they were going to be swayed by a forum thread, they'd be swayed by now, and if not, the thread is irrelevant.

[Svartalf]

Well, there is one, but it's not had a lot of people on it. The forum admins cutting the original thread (referenced at the beginning of this thread...) off at 10 pages kind of put a crimp in the desire to discuss it further from the people there.

Here's the link:

http://forums.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=527573&forum=84&sp=0

[joshuapurcell]

What is the problem with just starting another thread on the topic? It's happened so many times in the past, and if there some topic regarding Dragon Age and Linux that still could benefit from being discussed then I would be the mods wouldn't have a problem with it being there (at least that's what they've said in past threads).