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i bought several licenses of torchlight 2 but unfortunately i get fontconfig symbol errors. i was able to play the torchlight 2 demo a couple of weeks ago...
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Originally posted by F.Ultra View PostOne of these days you must show us all those magic 3:d party user space libs on Windows that never change API/ABIs (would be interesting considering that the vast majority of 3:d party libraries are cross platform). Yes the OS bundled libraries like WIN32 is mostly stable (but far from 100%) but the fact is that very single non trivial application and game on Windows either bundles tons of libraries or links statically, that is just the name of the game.
For the love of God or whoever you believe in, can you guys seriously start treating major versions as completely SEPARATE libraries? Please? They ARE even part of the name, especially on Windows where it's literally called libgtk2.dll or whatever.
zlib is called zlib1.dll (for eventual zlib2 maybe in the future). The difference between zlib1 and zlib2 is the same as the difference between kernel32 and user32 -- i.e. totally separate libraries.
All of the libraries that apps bundle are stable though. Going from gtk2 to gtk3 is a change in the LIBRARY itself, like going from GDI to Direct2D. Once you use this mindset you realize why it's retarded to drop "old versions" of a library.
And obviously, most of those DLLs are shipped by apps because they aren't part of Windows, not necessarily that they are unstable.
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Originally posted by dungeon View PostAnd by not removing old libs you are entering into security and maintaince hell
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Originally posted by skeevy420 View PostI guess Windows is broke by design since 10 uses a rolling release model now even though you claim ---
Originally posted by skeevy420 View PostSo which is it with Windows? Is or isn't it a sane platform. It is and isn't using your own definitions and words.
But even here Rolling Release is a disaster. Look people really hate breaking updates that come with this rolling release bullshit.
I've never seen a Windows OS ever be flamed so hard for breaking people's stuff on updates, it's obvious why. Internet is full of these horror stories. Thankfully never experienced them since I never touched Windows 10 on a real machine.
Originally posted by skeevy420 View PostI wasn't aware that Steam was an Arch Linux product or that Wine is made by Ubuntu. Steam and Wine are clearly not part of the OS. It's up to the maintainers of the OS to ensure that the runtime works on said OS. Are you really this dense?
Yes, currently it's better to target Wine than to target the OS's runtime, which is pretty funny. Basically it tells you that the OS's runtime is garbage.
The even more funny thing is that you have no problem with this at all and find it perfectly normal.
Originally posted by skeevy420 View PostRemove what? Seriously? What did I suggest be removed? Other than saying feature A being updated to 2.0 might not be backwards compatible with 1.0 after an update...which goes back to the LTS vs non LTS debate...which, in reality, doesn't even belong there because if 2.0 breaks 1.0, complain to the developer who let it break and not the OS maintainers for doing what's necessary to keep everything working.
So you must think that gtk2 is a completely different library than gtk3. It's not compatible because, well, they're two different libraries.
Removing old library version = removing a different library.
Like I said I don't care if you shim gtk2 and wrap it around gtk3 or whatever, but don't fucking remove it or its interface. It's that simple.
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Originally posted by Weasel View PostI wasn't even talking about ELF but the userspace lib devs on Linux breaking API/ABIs so often and distros not packaging older libraries which should be mandatory. I also don't care about SUN's ELF format since this is about Linux.
Cool you have new lib version, keep the old one. As Linus said, "Preferably forever". If you think that's bloated, then make it a shim over the new library to reduce its footprint. End of story.
You see, Wine doesn't remove DLLs that are used by apps. So until the fucking Linux userspace does that, you've no argument.
That said I'm with you 100% that library writers should take better care with ABI forward compatibility (I do with all the libraries that I write) and people should look more at how e.g glibc is built since it maintains full forward compatibility (which cannot be said for the libc version in Windows unless you are Microsoft [or you compile with GCC]). Where we do not agree is on the fact that Windows is this magically land where such things never happen.
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Originally posted by Weasel View PostNo I didn't, see below.
Developer targets runtime. Runtime is part of OS. Random US updates gets shiny new stuff but NEVER removes the old libs. Never. It may change the old libs internally (but not externally) so that they use the new libs and are just wrappers, so they become tiny. That's ok though.
Extend, never replace.
That's called a sane platform.Last edited by dungeon; 02 November 2018, 02:12 PM.
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Originally posted by Weasel View PostThere's no need to negate anything since Rolling Release is a broken model by design. Your solution with runtime exists due to a problem created by an idiotic model called Rolling Release. (LTS distros are also semi-rolling in this way)
Originally posted by Weasel View PostBasically, the model followed by... the Linux kernel... and Wine... and most of Windows userland (most, not all, but it's huge). You know, sane platforms.
Originally posted by Weasel View PostDeveloper targets runtime. Runtime is part of OS. Random US updates gets shiny new stuff but NEVER removes the old libs. Never. It may change the old libs internally (but not externally) so that they use the new libs and are just wrappers, so they become tiny. That's ok though.
Originally posted by Weasel View Posttl;dr: Extend, never replace. What the fuck is this obsession with removing from Rolling Release heads? Sickening.
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Originally posted by oiaohm View PostThird party applications makers want distributions to agree. Distributions are not going to agree. So you end up with never ending chicken and egg. At least valve with steam runtime has worked out they need to provide a run-time.
This will force their hand.
Really it's not so god damn difficult.
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Originally posted by skeevy420 View PostYou completely missed the point.
Originally posted by skeevy420 View PostStandardized 3rd Party Runtimes are a way to negate that.
Originally posted by skeevy420 View PostDeveloper targets runtime, runtime targets Random OS, Random OS end users don't have to worry about stuff breaking as Random OS updates and gets new stuff. End users get to use the new stuff and developers get a stable, long term platform to work from, everybody wins.
Developer targets runtime. Runtime is part of OS. Random US updates gets shiny new stuff but NEVER removes the old libs. Never. It may change the old libs internally (but not externally) so that they use the new libs and are just wrappers, so they become tiny. That's ok though.
Basically, the model followed by... the Linux kernel... and Wine... and most of Windows userland (most, not all, but it's huge). You know, sane platforms.
tl;dr: Extend, never replace. What the fuck is this obsession with removing from Rolling Release heads? Sickening.
That's called a sane platform.
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