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  • bnolsen
    replied
    i bought several licenses of torchlight 2 but unfortunately i get fontconfig symbol errors. i was able to play the torchlight 2 demo a couple of weeks ago...

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  • Weasel
    replied
    Originally posted by F.Ultra View Post
    One of these days you must show us all those magic 3:d party user space libs on Windows that never change API/ABIs (would be interesting considering that the vast majority of 3:d party libraries are cross platform). Yes the OS bundled libraries like WIN32 is mostly stable (but far from 100%) but the fact is that very single non trivial application and game on Windows either bundles tons of libraries or links statically, that is just the name of the game.
    Because they don't?

    For the love of God or whoever you believe in, can you guys seriously start treating major versions as completely SEPARATE libraries? Please? They ARE even part of the name, especially on Windows where it's literally called libgtk2.dll or whatever.

    zlib is called zlib1.dll (for eventual zlib2 maybe in the future). The difference between zlib1 and zlib2 is the same as the difference between kernel32 and user32 -- i.e. totally separate libraries.

    All of the libraries that apps bundle are stable though. Going from gtk2 to gtk3 is a change in the LIBRARY itself, like going from GDI to Direct2D. Once you use this mindset you realize why it's retarded to drop "old versions" of a library.

    And obviously, most of those DLLs are shipped by apps because they aren't part of Windows, not necessarily that they are unstable.

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  • Weasel
    replied
    Originally posted by dungeon View Post
    And by not removing old libs you are entering into security and maintaince hell
    Nope, nobody forces you to use it. If something does happen to use the older library, it means it wouldn't even start otherwise. App that fails to load is worse than app with the nastiest vulnerability in existence.

    Leave a comment:


  • Weasel
    replied
    Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post
    I guess Windows is broke by design since 10 uses a rolling release model now even though you claim ---
    It's one of the reasons that Windows 10 is such a mess, yes.

    Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post
    So which is it with Windows? Is or isn't it a sane platform. It is and isn't using your own definitions and words.
    W10 is rolling release but only on the OS, not the platform, unlike Linux. At least not its Win32 platform, I don't care about any other (.NET or UWP or whatever).

    But even here Rolling Release is a disaster. Look people really hate breaking updates that come with this rolling release bullshit.

    I've never seen a Windows OS ever be flamed so hard for breaking people's stuff on updates, it's obvious why. Internet is full of these horror stories. Thankfully never experienced them since I never touched Windows 10 on a real machine.

    Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post
    I wasn't aware that Steam was an Arch Linux product or that Wine is made by Ubuntu. Steam and Wine are clearly not part of the OS. It's up to the maintainers of the OS to ensure that the runtime works on said OS. Are you really this dense?
    I'm not sure I understand your point here? I'm saying that the OS should provide a sane and stable runtime just like Wine (or Steam) does.

    Yes, currently it's better to target Wine than to target the OS's runtime, which is pretty funny. Basically it tells you that the OS's runtime is garbage.

    The even more funny thing is that you have no problem with this at all and find it perfectly normal.

    Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post
    Remove what? Seriously? What did I suggest be removed? Other than saying feature A being updated to 2.0 might not be backwards compatible with 1.0 after an update...which goes back to the LTS vs non LTS debate...which, in reality, doesn't even belong there because if 2.0 breaks 1.0, complain to the developer who let it break and not the OS maintainers for doing what's necessary to keep everything working.
    Sigh. You must be one of those people who think that gtk2 and gtk3 are the same library, just "updated". Here's a tip: consider the major version of a library as part of its name.

    So you must think that gtk2 is a completely different library than gtk3. It's not compatible because, well, they're two different libraries.

    Removing old library version = removing a different library.

    Like I said I don't care if you shim gtk2 and wrap it around gtk3 or whatever, but don't fucking remove it or its interface. It's that simple.

    Leave a comment:


  • F.Ultra
    replied
    Originally posted by Weasel View Post
    I wasn't even talking about ELF but the userspace lib devs on Linux breaking API/ABIs so often and distros not packaging older libraries which should be mandatory. I also don't care about SUN's ELF format since this is about Linux.

    Cool you have new lib version, keep the old one. As Linus said, "Preferably forever". If you think that's bloated, then make it a shim over the new library to reduce its footprint. End of story.

    You see, Wine doesn't remove DLLs that are used by apps. So until the fucking Linux userspace does that, you've no argument.
    One of these days you must show us all those magic 3:d party user space libs on Windows that never change API/ABIs (would be interesting considering that the vast majority of 3:d party libraries are cross platform). Yes the OS bundled libraries like WIN32 is mostly stable (but far from 100%) but the fact is that very single non trivial application and game on Windows either bundles tons of libraries or links statically, that is just the name of the game.

    That said I'm with you 100% that library writers should take better care with ABI forward compatibility (I do with all the libraries that I write) and people should look more at how e.g glibc is built since it maintains full forward compatibility (which cannot be said for the libc version in Windows unless you are Microsoft [or you compile with GCC]). Where we do not agree is on the fact that Windows is this magically land where such things never happen.

    Leave a comment:


  • dungeon
    replied
    Originally posted by Weasel View Post
    No I didn't, see below.

    Developer targets runtime. Runtime is part of OS. Random US updates gets shiny new stuff but NEVER removes the old libs. Never. It may change the old libs internally (but not externally) so that they use the new libs and are just wrappers, so they become tiny. That's ok though.
    And by not removing old libs you are entering into security and maintaince hell

    Extend, never replace.
    Extend and sometimes replace. (never says never)

    That's called a sane platform.
    That might be sane platform if we have 100 times more developers, 100 times more users and 100 antiviruses
    Last edited by dungeon; 02 November 2018, 02:12 PM.

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  • skeevy420
    replied
    Originally posted by Weasel View Post
    There's no need to negate anything since Rolling Release is a broken model by design. Your solution with runtime exists due to a problem created by an idiotic model called Rolling Release. (LTS distros are also semi-rolling in this way)
    I guess Windows is broke by design since 10 uses a rolling release model now even though you claim ---

    Originally posted by Weasel View Post
    Basically, the model followed by... the Linux kernel... and Wine... and most of Windows userland (most, not all, but it's huge). You know, sane platforms.
    So which is it with Windows? Is or isn't it a sane platform. It is and isn't using your own definitions and words.

    Originally posted by Weasel View Post
    Developer targets runtime. Runtime is part of OS. Random US updates gets shiny new stuff but NEVER removes the old libs. Never. It may change the old libs internally (but not externally) so that they use the new libs and are just wrappers, so they become tiny. That's ok though.
    I wasn't aware that Steam was an Arch Linux product or that Wine is made by Ubuntu. Steam and Wine are clearly not part of the OS. It's up to the maintainers of the OS to ensure that the runtime works on said OS. Are you really this dense?


    Originally posted by Weasel View Post
    tl;dr: Extend, never replace. What the fuck is this obsession with removing from Rolling Release heads? Sickening.
    Remove what? Seriously? What did I suggest be removed? Other than saying feature A being updated to 2.0 might not be backwards compatible with 1.0 after an update...which goes back to the LTS vs non LTS debate...which, in reality, doesn't even belong there because if 2.0 breaks 1.0, complain to the developer who let it break and not the OS maintainers for doing what's necessary to keep everything working.

    Leave a comment:


  • Weasel
    replied
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    Third party applications makers want distributions to agree. Distributions are not going to agree. So you end up with never ending chicken and egg. At least valve with steam runtime has worked out they need to provide a run-time.
    Solution is easy to anyone with half a brain: take away the global namespace or whatever else that distros use. Make it impossible to be used, literally.

    This will force their hand.

    Really it's not so god damn difficult.

    Leave a comment:


  • Weasel
    replied
    Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post
    You completely missed the point.
    No I didn't, see below.

    Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post
    Standardized 3rd Party Runtimes are a way to negate that.
    There's no need to negate anything since Rolling Release is a broken model by design. Your solution with runtime exists due to a problem created by an idiotic model called Rolling Release. (LTS distros are also semi-rolling in this way)

    Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post
    Developer targets runtime, runtime targets Random OS, Random OS end users don't have to worry about stuff breaking as Random OS updates and gets new stuff. End users get to use the new stuff and developers get a stable, long term platform to work from, everybody wins.
    Nope.

    Developer targets runtime. Runtime is part of OS. Random US updates gets shiny new stuff but NEVER removes the old libs. Never. It may change the old libs internally (but not externally) so that they use the new libs and are just wrappers, so they become tiny. That's ok though.

    Basically, the model followed by... the Linux kernel... and Wine... and most of Windows userland (most, not all, but it's huge). You know, sane platforms.

    tl;dr: Extend, never replace. What the fuck is this obsession with removing from Rolling Release heads? Sickening.

    That's called a sane platform.

    Leave a comment:


  • TemplarGR
    replied
    Originally posted by ssam View Post
    The survey does not trigger if you are beta.
    Yeah. You need to have good game. Become an Alpha male. Then it will trigger.

    Leave a comment:

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