Steam Survey Reports The Latest Linux Gaming Marketshare For October

[Weasel]

But we're talking about games here, so you say games on Windows break a lot. Let's compare that to Linux: How often did the kernel to userspace API/ABIs do breaking changes?

Kernel doesn't, that's why it's gold. Most of userspace is dirt though.

How often did SDL break?

SDL1->SDL2.

How often did Mesa/OpenGL break? Not at all?

OpenGL is not Linux userspace API only (it's cross platform) so of course it's stable. It has sane developers and development process who actually design things before they "code" it.

So a native Linux game should be lonnger forward compatible than a native Windows game.

Only if it's statically linked, lol. Which bypasses the userspace entirely (except for low level stable ABIs of course).

As a game dev you can target the things stated above (SDL, OpenGL, Vulkan) or, well, just the Steam Runtime?

Why do you need a 3rd party runtime? Isn't that just admitting that the OS's runtime itself is terrible shit then since you avoid it? Come on.

[dungeon]

Windows is a terrible OS. But it has a platform a thousand times better than Linux because it's stable.

Linux could also be terrible but also to be stable, if your distro aims to stable and is commited to provide longer term support

[oiaohm]

Someone who actually knows what he's talking about. Also, Wine is a thousand times better option for *most* applications that you archive yourself and expect to be useable 5, 10, 20 years from now (yes, the shock, an "older" version) instead of going with whatever your distro pre-packages.

Its about time you get a clue. SUN who designed ELF format did not design it for a min 20 years of support. The format is designed for 50+ years of support if everything is implemented as the documentation around it described. Including methods to keep on updating libraries under applications.

Like you missed the DT_FILTER feature in ELF format did not you.

By the way the server world does maintain means to run 10 year old applications. http://snapshot.debian.org/ So applications from 2005 forwards using the snapshots system debian supports. Issue comes using those snapshots is security problems.

Really Weasel you are not someone who knows what he was talking about at all. Server side has a set of demands and desktop and a few extras. Civil infrastructure servers require longer functional than any desktop.

[Weasel]

Its about time you get a clue. SUN who designed ELF format did not design it for a min 20 years of support. The format is designed for 50+ years of support if everything is implemented as the documentation around it described. Including methods to keep on updating libraries under applications.

Like you missed the DT_FILTER feature in ELF format did not you.

By the way the server world does maintain means to run 10 year old applications. http://snapshot.debian.org/ So applications from 2005 forwards using the snapshots system debian supports. Issue comes using those snapshots is security problems.

Really Weasel you are not someone who knows what he was talking about at all. Server side has a set of demands and desktop and a few extras. Civil infrastructure servers require longer functional than any desktop.

I wasn't even talking about ELF but the userspace lib devs on Linux breaking API/ABIs so often and distros not packaging older libraries which should be mandatory. I also don't care about SUN's ELF format since this is about Linux.

Cool you have new lib version, keep the old one. As Linus said, "Preferably forever". If you think that's bloated, then make it a shim over the new library to reduce its footprint. End of story.

You see, Wine doesn't remove DLLs that are used by apps. So until the fucking Linux userspace does that, you've no argument.

[Weasel]

Linux could also be terrible but also to be stable, if your distro aims to stable and is commited to provide longer term support

Linux (the KERNEL) IS stable, in fact it's even MORE stable than Windows' userland libraries. And we all know why we use Linux. It's not for the userland, definitely, but the kernel.

Sure the kernel is not stable with in-kernel interfaces (drivers) but that's already an issue and a lot of people are unhappy about it. That's why it still has poor driver support compared to Windows. That said, for userspace, it is very stable indeed.

That's one of the reasons it's good.

[skeevy420]

Why do you need a 3rd party runtime? Isn't that just admitting that the OS's runtime itself is terrible shit then since you avoid it? Come on.

It's not much different for game developers to target the Steam Runtime than it is for a generic program writer targeting Flatpak or Snap or, like you even suggested, Wine to have a known and stable base to work with.

Targeting a standardised runtime isn't calling the overlaying OS's runtime shit.

This is damn near a mirror of the AMDGPU-Pro thread from the other day where some of us were debating LTS and Rolling distros. The LTS distro, 3rd party runtime here, is better from a developer POV because it's stable and known where as a Rolling distro, the OS runtime analog, is better for end users because we get performance and feature upgrades faster at the risk of "runtime" breakage. Random OS + 3rd Party Runtime = Multiplatform Stable Development Environment.

Notice I didn't actually single out any specific OS. It applies to all of them.

[skeevy420]

You no longer need to be on the beta branch to use Proton though. That was just during the first one or two weeks after it was initially released. While Proton itself is still considered beta, it is included in the stable Steam client since a while back.

That's good to know. I've been running the beta for so long (before Proton is was Steam Controller reasons) I've pretty much considered beta to be stable.

[oiaohm]

With Linux you get ostensibly compatible operating systems (=distros) but in reality they have varying libraries (versions, patches, availability, etc.) so you cannot even reliably target multiple distros at once.

For server class applications this is not true. Requires working knowledge of ELF to pull it off. Weasel does not have this yet he still thinks he has the right to comment.

ELF has two very power hidden features.

https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E23824_01/html/819-0690/chapter4-4.html

DT_FILTER and DT_AUXLLIARY.

Filter allows you to state exactly what library a symbol is from and restrict symbols brought in to a point.

AUXLLIARY is the mega cool one. You are able to bundle a library with your application with Auxiliary library declare of host library and this results in using the host library if it provided or using your library if it not. This can make very nice handling of missing libraries.

Of course for graphical having lib-capsule completes out trifecta.

Then you have DT_RUNPATH that you don't find set on lots of third party applications targeting 1 distribution but you fair much find this set in every application targeting multi distributions. Yes DT_RUNPATH gives somewhere to put a missing library without messing up the system.

There are a lot of programs out there that are simple tar.gz installs and they run. Developers have exploited what ELF format allows.

Now if you are a windows developer and come to Linux build program like it windows of course it turns around and kicks you in teeth. Filter and Auxlliary don't magically just happen you have to create the map files and use them when linking. Same with versioning your exported symbols.

Flatpak and snap is mostly for those who don't want to learn how to create the stubs and use what is designed into ELF.

[Weasel]

It's not much different for game developers to target the Steam Runtime than it is for a generic program writer targeting Flatpak or Snap or, like you even suggested, Wine to have a known and stable base to work with.

Targeting a standardised runtime isn't calling the overlaying OS's runtime shit.

This is damn near a mirror of the AMDGPU-Pro thread from the other day where some of us were debating LTS and Rolling distros. The LTS distro, 3rd party runtime here, is better from a developer POV because it's stable and known where as a Rolling distro, the OS runtime analog, is better for end users because we get performance and feature upgrades faster at the risk of "runtime" breakage. Random OS + 3rd Party Runtime = Multiplatform Stable Development Environment.

Notice I didn't actually single out any specific OS. It applies to all of them.

Sorry but Rolling Releases are horrible for users who want stability (as in few changes) and not have an update randomly crap out, or ruin our workflow and end up missing deadlines. Rolling Releases are a terrible concept except for developers who use them in VMs or as testing machines.

[Weasel]

For server class applications this is not true. Requires working knowledge of ELF to pull it off. Weasel does not have this yet he still thinks he has the right to comment.

ELF has two very power hidden features.

https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E23824_01/html/819-0690/chapter4-4.html

DT_FILTER and DT_AUXLLIARY.

Filter allows you to state exactly what library a symbol is from and restrict symbols brought in to a point.

But nobody uses those hence Linux desktop sucks.