Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Valve Reaffirms Commitment To Linux, SteamOS

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    jacob Wine/Mesa could be a first class open source implementation of DirectX on Linux and Linux would still be judged on the whole as a platform, not because of one graphics API implementation it happens to run or not run. I'm not sure what your point is other than spreading FUD about Wine and Linux. I don't think OS/2 is a direct comparison to Linux, in any way. It's not open source, and was never truly widely available or used.

    AMD/Intel with Mantle/Vulkan/opensource drivers have made a huge impact, so has Steam, and Wine for gaming on Linux through your own admission. Wine could be a first class DirectX implementation on Linux if Microsoft did the same thing it has done with Mono... Have developers rushed to write Mono-only apps? I don't think so. If it did happen and it turns out to be a patent minefield, nothing much would change. If it wasn't a patent minefield, game developers could choose DirectX or Vulkan the same as they do now, but actually based on which was better for games and not on which platforms their game will run on. I don't think real competition is a bad thing for Linux.

    Wine as a way to play old windows games/apps isn't going anywhere, and as a first-class DirectX implementation would make running DirectX apps on Linux/BSDs easier. Would it matter to the game developer? This is very much an open question determined by performance/ecosystem/patents/etc... Only the former keeps happening, and I'm not sure Microsoft can help itself do the later if Mono is any indication. .Net and DirectX are both top-level MS projects.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by audi100quattro View Post
      jacob Wine/Mesa could be a first class open source implementation of DirectX on Linux and Linux would still be judged on the whole as a platform, not because of one graphics API implementation it happens to run or not run. I'm not sure what your point is other than spreading FUD about Wine and Linux. I don't think OS/2 is a direct comparison to Linux, in any way. It's not open source, and was never truly widely available or used.

      AMD/Intel with Mantle/Vulkan/opensource drivers have made a huge impact, so has Steam, and Wine for gaming on Linux through your own admission. Wine could be a first class DirectX implementation on Linux if Microsoft did the same thing it has done with Mono... Have developers rushed to write Mono-only apps? I don't think so. If it did happen and it turns out to be a patent minefield, nothing much would change. If it wasn't a patent minefield, game developers could choose DirectX or Vulkan the same as they do now, but actually based on which was better for games and not on which platforms their game will run on. I don't think real competition is a bad thing for Linux.

      Wine as a way to play old windows games/apps isn't going anywhere, and as a first-class DirectX implementation would make running DirectX apps on Linux/BSDs easier. Would it matter to the game developer? This is very much an open question determined by performance/ecosystem/patents/etc... Only the former keeps happening, and I'm not sure Microsoft can help itself do the later if Mono is any indication. .Net and DirectX are both top-level MS projects.
      No one says Wine is going anywhere. I certainly hope it doesn't. But it's absurd to expect Wine to turn Linux into a great gaming platform, except indirectly by helping to polish its software stack. Wine is all about running Windows games, by definition, and if you want to play Windows games, then you can either do it on Windows, or use Linux/Wine, with compatibility problems (which will always exist, no matter how good Wine is, that's unavoidable) and no support from the game developers. Therefore Wine is great for those who want the Windows games but for some reason can't or don't want to use a Windows computer for that, but the mainstream gamers won't say hey, I want to play this great Windows title, let me install Linux and Wine. In other words Linux won't become a gaming OS unless and until there is a sufficient library of games developed *for Linux*.

      Now that also doesn't necessarily mean that Linux must have millions of "AAA" titles, either. Once Linux's drivers and APIs become top notch, which they really aren't yet although there is huge progress, Linux may very well prove to be an attractive proposition for indie developers, because it could save them the outrageous licensing fees and constraints and the various "store" commissions imposed by the consoles or even by the Windows ecosystem. Assuming the Ataribox one day becomes something more than vapourware, it could be one step in that direction. Another factor is rising privacy and spyware concerns. Another would be some catchy, highly addictive game released either as a Linux exclusive (even if temporary), or which would be noticeably cheaper on Linux because the development and distribution costs will be so much lower.

      One weakness of Linux for gaming, as I see it, is also that some genres are much better served than others. There seem to be a huge choice for MMORPGs for Linux, but its library is poor example in single-player, narrative-based FPSes. There is a limited but reasonable range of strategy-based games, but simulations are next to nonexistent. Adventure games are numerous, but as a lover of adventures I would subjectively say that 99% of those that come in Linux versions really don't seem appealing or interesting.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by jacob View Post

        No one says Wine is going anywhere. I certainly hope it doesn't. But it's absurd to expect Wine to turn Linux into a great gaming platform, except indirectly by helping to polish its software stack. Wine is all about running Windows games, by definition, and if you want to play Windows games, then you can either do it on Windows, or use Linux/Wine, with compatibility problems (which will always exist, no matter how good Wine is, that's unavoidable) and no support from the game developers. Therefore Wine is great for those who want the Windows games but for some reason can't or don't want to use a Windows computer for that, but the mainstream gamers won't say hey, I want to play this great Windows title, let me install Linux and Wine. In other words Linux won't become a gaming OS unless and until there is a sufficient library of games developed *for Linux*.

        1) Wine as an "emulator" for a circa 2001 tomb raider game won't be subject to "compatibility problems", neither the game nor the windows API are changing. The last time Starcraft Remastered stopped working for me after a game update, it turned out to be Blizzard's fault, and they pushed a update fix making it work for everyone including Wine (https://us.battle.net/forums/en/star...age=7#post-139). So, yes, there are regressions, but it's more stable than you're implying. Most emulators or translations layers have certain core incompatibility issues, but that doesn't stop them from being successful for 100% of the use cases they do work for.

        2) System Shock 2, and other developer supported Wine ports do exist, and are a part of Linux gaming. You ignored what I said about Wine/Mesa being a first class DirectX implementation on Linux, possibly following Mono if MS chooses, and because of existing Wine-ports and it only getting better at running top-tier games, I think Wine is consequential and doesn't show any signs of stopping. Steam OS/Linux is already a pretty good gaming platform, and a great one considering it's open source ways.

        3) Linux gaming in the last few years is about where Mac gaming has been for decades. There will be "Windows-exclusives" for the lack of a better term (exclusives are a port of the gaming industry), but it's never been a better time to write a game using a Linux-supported engine or play it on a Steam box. Will it be as big as Windows gaming? Does it need to be?

        Your perspective might have been fine a few years ago with some casual Wine-bashing or even skepticism, but it's not anymore.

        Comment


        • #64
          To each their own.

          It is because of the protections imposed by Copyleft licenses and Free-Software pioneers and champions that I can relax and whole-heartedly support Steam's efforts to bridge the gap between the giant Operating Systems/platforms and Linux. It's important to be mindful of the ideals that have shaped Linux since its beginnings. However, it's harmful, IMHO, to deny support to people or companies, that are trying to build on top of the strong foundation that the Linux ecosystem has built and continues to fortify, on the basis that their values and practices are antithetical to that idealistic foundation of GNU/Linux.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by dungeon View Post
            MS, Sony, Nintendo... invest into exclusives all the time, as these pushes up a platform to be more used
            yes, many people are slaves

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Michael_S View Post
              What? ..... No, Steam doesn't mandate proprietary or DRM.
              you've just answered your question
              Originally posted by Michael_S View Post
              Steam currently lists 22685 games/mods/apps/whatever. A search for "open source" in Steam gets 64 hits. A search for DRM-free on Steam gets around 250 hits.
              i'm pretty sure your search for drm-free is flawed, since majority of steam games are indies with no need for drm. in any case this is not steam's fault, put more opensource/drmfree games on steam to solve your problem
              Originally posted by Michael_S View Post
              No, Steam doesn't mandate proprietary or DRM. But they're above 99% proprietary and DRM. Steam is a game store, and being a game store does not mandate proprietary software or DRM. But Steam is built to facilitate DRM and supporting proprietary software is a byproduct. If all you were offering users was a sale, a download, and 'cloud' saves, you would build your store very differently. DRM is central to their business model.
              steam is built to facilitate customer demands. for example it supports windows games and most of it games are windows-only, but it would be very stupid for linux users to boycott steam based on that. i only use sale, download and cloud saves and see no issues with how its store is built

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by pal666 View Post
                yes, many people are slaves
                Hmm.. I guess you've never seen Silicon Valley on HBO or Altered Carbon on Netflix?

                Exclusives though not a great practice, are a moot point, there are rough equivalents for almost every type of game, even on Linux currently (mostly), and especially if you have a console. It's not like you have pay more than average for exclusives, yes, you have to buy the console, but that cost is amortized.

                There are only 2 publishers who I would like to see start publishing Linux games: Stardock and Ubisoft. I think it's only a matter of time before they do. Their games don't have great alternatives on Linux. Fuck the rest for all I care. That's just me though.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by audi100quattro View Post
                  Hmm.. I guess you've never seen Silicon Valley on HBO or Altered Carbon on Netflix?
                  i don't have hbo or netflix. and certainly if i will be selecting service, i will be choosing better service, not better lockin
                  and btw we have different definitions for "exclusive"
                  https://www.google.com/search?q=s...y+watch+online
                  Originally posted by audi100quattro View Post
                  Exclusives though not a great practice, are a moot point, there are rough equivalents for almost every type of game, even on Linux currently (mostly), and especially if you have a console. It's not like you have pay more than average for exclusives, yes, you have to buy the console, but that cost is amortized.
                  of course it is amortized. every user has to pay for bribery
                  Last edited by pal666; 04-09-2018, 02:29 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    So we've gone from slavery to corruption... progress. I do agree bundling and exclusives are corrupt practices.

                    Comment

                    Working...
                    X