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Linux 4.9 Kernel Tacks On Over 200k Lines Of Code

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  • starshipeleven
    replied
    Originally posted by UbuntuRulez View Post
    So you agree you are a Troll. "I might be a troll", "I am a far better troll than you", etc. Nice.
    But I am actually and factually right. Nice how you aren't getting the important part.

    No proof? I just asked if you want me to link to a couple of threads where Linux upgraders have problems with their drivers?
    No, the proof I ask is that these issues are caused by unstable ABI. Because regressions happen because the drivers are actively developed and this is normal also on Windows (go ask NVIDIA lately).
    Mainline drivers don't have ABI issues as they are always kept in sync with kernel.

    A troll is never right. He might as well as lie, as tell the truth. You are not to be trusted, and you need to prove your assertions, which you dont.
    That link I posted is enough.


    You are wrong. Windows have stable ABI. See below.


    So? What's the problem? Again, Windows have stable ABI within the Windows version.
    So does Linux.

    Too bad, you take pride in being a Troll. You should be banned, you clearly dont know much about IT, contribute nothing constructive and are just rude.
    Stop projecting your fantasies.

    What bullshit? Linux DOES have a ABI problem. You can deny it how much you want, but it is a fact.
    Until you prove that the regressions are caused by ABI instability, that's not a fact.

    Leave a comment:


  • UbuntuRulez
    replied
    Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
    I provide proof of what I say, so I can't be lying even if I might be a Troll.
    ...
    Yeah, and you are butthurt because I'm a far better troll than you'll ever be so you whine.
    So you agree you are a Troll. "I might be a troll", "I am a far better troll than you", etc. Nice.


    Meanwhile you that lie profusely and troll hard claiming to be right and true without any proof.
    No proof? I just asked if you want me to link to a couple of threads where Linux upgraders have problems with their drivers?

    Who is right? Me.
    A troll is never right. He might as well as lie, as tell the truth. You are not to be trusted, and you need to prove your assertions, which you dont.

    I just said that ABI stability isn't a solution (providing the link as a proof), and that not even Windows has more ABI stability than Linux (providing the windows 10 hardware support clusterfuck and general driver issues as a proof).
    You are wrong. Windows have stable ABI. See below.

    The only way to update the kernel in Windows is to move to a new Windows version, and that causes breakage in drivers, and it is a fact.
    So? What's the problem? Again, Windows have stable ABI within the Windows version. Microsoft dont promise that your device drivers will work when you move to another Windows version. Microsoft has never promised that drivers for WinXP will work in Win10 - why do you lie about that? You are FUDing too. Troll and FUDer.

    OTOH, Linux does have problems with device drivers even upgrading with minor revisions. You can deny this as much as you want, Troll - but it is true. There are forum threads on this - but you never visit Linux forums apparently.

    No, this forum is basically unmoderated.
    Too bad, you take pride in being a Troll. You should be banned, you clearly dont know much about IT, contribute nothing constructive and are just rude.

    You started this by posting blatant bullshit, don't deny it.
    What bullshit? Linux DOES have a ABI problem. You can deny it how much you want, but it is a fact.

    Leave a comment:


  • starshipeleven
    replied
    Originally posted by UbuntuRulez View Post
    Ok, so it seems that you might as well as lie as telling the truth. So you admit you are a troll then. Nice.
    I provide proof of what I say, so I can't be lying even if I might be a Troll.
    Meanwhile you that lie profusely and troll hard claiming to be right and true without any proof.

    Who is right? Me.

    fact is people are having lot of device driver issues when upgrading the kernel (even within minor revision). Maybe you have missed all those forum threads in all the Linux forums. Do you want me to link to some of them? You apparently dont visit any Linux forums because you deny these threads exist.
    I never denied that, stop strawmanning.

    I just said that ABI stability isn't a solution (providing the link as a proof), and that not even Windows has more ABI stability than Linux (providing the windows 10 hardware support clusterfuck and general driver issues as a proof).

    And fact is, people dont have these problems with other OSes.
    The only way to update the kernel in Windows is to move to a new Windows version, and that causes breakage in drivers, and it is a fact.

    There are facts, and there are opinions. And there are trolls, that lie for fun - just to trigger a flame war. You know, triggering flame wars is what Troll does. Just what i am doing here. Denying all the facts (ABI stability is bullshit even on Windows, kernel updates don't usually break drivers as hard on Linux) and lying about all other OSes don't break when upgrading the kernel - which is not true. So I lie, and start flame wars. The very definition of a Troll.
    Fixed.

    Is it possible to ban Trolls here?
    No, this forum is basically unmoderated.

    I mean, you say you are lying
    Strawman or a severe case of Learn To Fucking Read.
    and you start flame wars
    You started this by posting blatant bullshit, don't deny it.
    you are a troll.
    Yeah, and you are butthurt because I'm a far better troll than you'll ever be so you whine.

    Leave a comment:


  • UbuntuRulez
    replied
    Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
    I'm saying that anything without a proof is a lie, and yes I might lie as well for fun and profit.

    But I'm providing proof here.

    No, it proves that ABI stability isn't solving the problem.

    No, the Linux kernel does not break ABI whithin the same major version, LTS or not, so what you claimed before was bullshit.

    Upgrading kernel does not break drivers, you get newer drivers that might have new bugs and that's not the same thing as breaking drivers.
    Old drivers stay there with the previous kernel and you can switch back at boot time easily.

    Closed-source drivers are another matter, if all this whine is because kernel update breaks your NVIDIA driver it's because you are a noob and didn't follow the correct update procedures (or installed an unsupported kernel)

    I'm talking of kernel LTS status, not the userspace's. Many people/distros/companies are interested in a kernel with ABI stability for like 5 years or so.

    Yup. Because you don't add "new library functionality" to the kernel, as it is a kernel. Libraries are in userspace, not in the kernel. Try looking with your package manager how many packages depend from the kernel version.
    Hint: you won't find many.

    Distro (Ubuntu) issue, kernel is irrelevant here.

    Apart from Windows and OSX, and probably minor OSs too, as said above.

    No it means that you are still an idiot troll.
    Ok, so it seems that you might as well as lie as telling the truth. So you admit you are a troll then. Nice.

    Regarding the device driver issues that everybody has, it does not matter how much you link to a FAQ or talk about LTS or whatever - fact is people are having lot of device driver issues when upgrading the kernel (even within minor revision). Maybe you have missed all those forum threads in all the Linux forums. Do you want me to link to some of them? You apparently dont visit any Linux forums because you deny these threads exist.

    And fact is, people dont have these problems with other OSes.

    There are facts, and there are opinions. And there are trolls, that lie for fun - just to trigger a flame war. You know, triggering flame wars is what Troll does. Just what you are doing here. Denying all the facts (threads with driver problems) and lying about all other OSes share the same driver model as Linux - which is not true. So you lie, and start flame wars. The very definition of a Troll. Is it possible to ban Trolls here? I mean, you say you are lying and you start flame wars - you are a troll.


    Leave a comment:


  • starshipeleven
    replied
    Originally posted by UbuntuRulez View Post
    Are you saying we should not pay attention to what you say? That you might as well as lie? Nice.
    I'm saying that anything without a proof is a lie, and yes I might lie as well for fun and profit.

    But I'm providing proof here.

    So, the FAQ proves that Linux does not have device driver problems when upgrading the Kernel?
    No, it proves that ABI stability isn't solving the problem.

    This only applies to LTS distros.
    No, the Linux kernel does not break ABI whithin the same major version, LTS or not, so what you claimed before was bullshit.

    All the 99% of us that dont use LTS? Is it ok that upgrading the kernel breaks device drivers for us?
    Upgrading kernel does not break drivers, you get newer drivers that might have new bugs and that's not the same thing as breaking drivers.
    Old drivers stay there with the previous kernel and you can switch back at boot time easily.

    Closed-source drivers are another matter, if all this whine is because kernel update breaks your NVIDIA driver it's because you are a noob and didn't follow the correct update procedures (or installed an unsupported kernel)

    But no one is interested in ancient LTS distros.
    I'm talking of kernel LTS status, not the userspace's. Many people/distros/companies are interested in a kernel with ABI stability for like 5 years or so.

    you need to backport the new library functionality to the old Linux kernel version, and who does that? No one.
    Yup. Because you don't add "new library functionality" to the kernel, as it is a kernel. Libraries are in userspace, not in the kernel. Try looking with your package manager how many packages depend from the kernel version.
    Hint: you won't find many.

    So if you upgrade something, say a library becuase you want a new version of the software, then that library will trigger upgrade of something else, which will trigger upgrade of something else, etc. In an avalanche you have upgraded everything, and you have left LTS. So LTS is a broken concept and only valid if you are not willing to install new software nor upgrade. LTS does not work.
    Distro (Ubuntu) issue, kernel is irrelevant here.

    and Linux ABI model is broken. No other OS has that model.
    Apart from Windows and OSX, and probably minor OSs too, as said above.

    This must mean that Linus Torvalds is smarter than the rest of the world, right?
    No it means that you are still an idiot troll.

    Leave a comment:


  • UbuntuRulez
    replied
    Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
    1. neither of the people here has demonstrated their claims about their job. He claimed to be a developer (I doubt it), I claimed to be sysadmin/techsupport. If you work on baseless claims you are a moron.
    Are you saying we should not pay attention to what you say? That you might as well as lie? Nice.


    2. What matters is that the linked faq, it is in the kernel's public git repo, it was written by a known and high-profile kernel developer/mantainer, and that what this developer says proves wrong any of your silly claims. https://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/ke...i_nonsense.txt
    So, the FAQ proves that Linux does not have device driver problems when upgrading the Kernel? Just because someone wrote it in a FAQ, it proves that all the threads in Linux forums about upgrade problems are invalid? Eh?

    Do you understand what I did? I did this to show that also Linux has the same level of ABI stability within releases as Windows.

    Also, you know right that RHEL (and its free version CentOS) have like 10 years of ABI compatibility as they keep using the same kernel (with backported fixes/stability/security patches)? (more if you pay RedHat)
    This only applies to LTS distros. All the 99% of us that dont use LTS? Is it ok that upgrading the kernel breaks device drivers for us?


    This is plain wrong. Linux kernel has a stable ABI within the same revision.
    All kernels in the same major version are only receving safety and stability fixes. (for a longer or shorter time depending on their LTS status)
    Any new feature (might require an ABI change or not) CANNOT be added to the kernel after the so-called "feature freeze", that happens when the kernel is released.

    Nice trolling, 8/10.
    But no one is interested in ancient LTS distros. You can not install the latest software, because it uses new libraries. So you need to backport the new library functionality to the old Linux kernel version, and who does that? No one. So you are stuck with your old ancient software. Users dont want that.

    So if you upgrade something, say a library becuase you want a new version of the software, then that library will trigger upgrade of something else, which will trigger upgrade of something else, etc. In an avalanche you have upgraded everything, and you have left LTS. So LTS is a broken concept and only valid if you are not willing to install new software nor upgrade. LTS does not work. Linux ABIs might change at any whim, and Linux ABI model is broken. No other OS has that model. This must mean that Linus Torvalds is smarter than the rest of the world, right?

    Leave a comment:


  • starshipeleven
    replied
    Originally posted by UbuntuRulez View Post
    Yeah, but "hansg" is a developer, not techsupport. He has programmed a lot. And somehow, I think a developer's experiences about software development are more credible than a tech support guy?
    1. neither of the people here has demonstrated their claims about their job. He claimed to be a developer (I doubt it), I claimed to be sysadmin/techsupport. If you work on baseless claims you are a moron.

    2. What matters is that the linked faq, it is in the kernel's public git repo, it was written by a known and high-profile kernel developer/mantainer, and that what this developer says proves wrong any of your silly claims. https://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/ke...i_nonsense.txt

    Ubuntu 12.04 has stable ABI, as do Ubuntu 14.04, and Ubuntu 16.04, etc etc etc. ALL Ubuntu LTS OSes has stable ABIs. Sure, when you upgrade from a Ubuntu LTS to another Ubuntu LTS, device drivers might not work anymore because ABI might change between Ubuntu LTS versions. But ABI does not change _within_ Ubuntu LTS versions. If you upgrade from Ubuntu LTS 12.04 (kernel at release) to Ubuntu LTS 12.04 (last updated kernel for 12.04 shipped as update from Canonical) - all your device drivers work.
    fixed.
    Do you understand what I did? I did this to show that also Linux has the same level of ABI stability within releases as Windows.

    Also, you know right that RHEL (and its free version CentOS) have like 10 years of ABI compatibility as they keep using the same kernel (with backported fixes/stability/security patches)? (more if you pay RedHat)

    If you upgrade from WinXP to Vista, Microsoft does not promise your drivers will work anymore. But often they do.
    XP -> Vista... not that much, but Vista -> Win7 yep. Other windows, it's a crapshoot. Depending on when they change subsystems the drivers will likely work or not (with or without some .inf file hacking).

    However, when you upgrade a minor Linux kernel version to the next (not say, from v2.4 to v3.0) all hell might break loose. Linux changes ABI within the same kernel revision.
    Tell me, you come up with this blatant, outrageous, baseless bullshit on your own or it's the voices in your head that tell you to write this?

    This is plain wrong. Linux kernel has a stable ABI within the same revision.
    All kernels in the same major version are only receving safety and stability fixes. (for a longer or shorter time depending on their LTS status)
    Any new feature (might require an ABI change or not) CANNOT be added to the kernel after the so-called "feature freeze", that happens when the kernel is released.

    You did not know this, and you are a tech support guy? Maybe you think people are a PITA, because you lack some computer skills and knowledge? If all your serviced computers break, and people complain - maybe you should work on your IT chops?
    Nice trolling, 8/10.

    Leave a comment:


  • UbuntuRulez
    replied
    Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
    Wrong and wrong, I work as sysadmin and techsupport on both linux and Windows stuff.
    Yeah, but "hansg" is a developer, not techsupport. He has programmed a lot. And somehow, I think a developer's experiences about software development are more credible than a tech support guy?

    Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
    Due to my job experience I tend to react very harshly to people
    Is that so? Nah, I dont believe you.

    Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
    that clearly don't know shit and think that Windows has stable ABI (wrong),
    Wrong. You are misinformed. Windows DO have a stable ABI. And Windows does not have these Linux upgrade problems.

    Windows XP has stable ABI, as do Vista, and Win7, etc etc etc. ALL Windows OSes has stable ABIs. Sure, when you upgrade from a Windows OS to another Windows, device drivers might not work anymore because ABI might change between Windows versions. But ABI does not change _within_ Windows versions. If you upgrade from Windows XP to Windows XP Service Pack 3 - all your device drivers work. If you upgrade from WinXP to Vista, Microsoft does not promise your drivers will work anymore. But often they do.

    However, when you upgrade a minor Linux kernel version to the next (not say, from v2.4 to v3.0) all hell might break loose. Linux changes ABI within the same kernel revision. No other OS do that. All other OSes has stable ABIs within the same kernel version. Linux does not.

    You did not know this, and you are a tech support guy? Maybe you think people are a PITA, because you lack some computer skills and knowledge? If all your serviced computers break, and people complain - maybe you should work on your IT chops?

    Leave a comment:


  • starshipeleven
    replied
    Originally posted by hansg View Post
    Based on your pleasant discussion style I'm going to guess you either haven't seen a real human being in at least a decade, or that you were born after I wrote my first line of code. _Long_ after...
    Wrong and wrong, I work as sysadmin and techsupport on both linux and Windows stuff.
    Due to my job experience I tend to react very harshly to people that clearly don't know shit and think that Windows has stable ABI (wrong), and that a stable ABI has anything to do with good drivers (wrong again), and that we need a stable ABI in Linux too so we can have on Linux the same retarded bullshit issues that are a total PITA to fix on Windows (if fixable at all due to closed-source) during my day job.

    For the rest, try answering some points next time.
    Nice bullshit. I actually did answer all your secondary points, and the explanation in the link answers the main point you made.

    Or you want to claim that a lead kernel dev like Greg Kroah-Hartman is a liar somehow and want to show the class you are good too by pointing out where he is wrong, with sources?

    Feel free to keep ranting and foaming at the mouth some more, but don't bite into the furniture please.
    Your tears, they are delicious.

    Leave a comment:


  • hansg
    replied
    Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
    All these people's opinion is irrelevant, even if you were right.
    Developers decide, you stfu. Welcome to opensource world.

    You are wrong and you don't understand a damn of software development.
    Based on your pleasant discussion style I'm going to guess you either haven't seen a real human being in at least a decade, or that you were born after I wrote my first line of code. _Long_ after...

    For the rest, try answering some points next time. I'll leave you alone now. Feel free to keep ranting and foaming at the mouth some more, but don't bite into the furniture please.

    Leave a comment:

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