FFmpeg's Leader Resigns, Hopes To Make Libav Developers Come Back

[sdack]

Stepping back from leadership is a courageous decision ...

You do not make decisions in open source projects based on courageousness. This only looks good in movies like Fast & Furious, but for people who sit behind computers would it turn into a case of really bad reasoning. So better not go there and just be honest about it.

Niedermayer's idea of libav joining ffmpeg really is only another display of his selfishness. If you want to see any good come out of a merge then ffmpeg has to join the libav project and not the other way around. And if this is unthinkable for ffmpeg developers, then why even start this discussion?

If Niedermayer truly wants both projects to merge then he can leave and shut ffmpeg down, thereby forcing the ffmpeg developers to join libav. How would you rate such a decision? Is it too courageous?

[wagaf]

Niedermayer's idea of libav joining ffmpeg really is only another display of his selfishness. If you want to see any good come out of a merge then ffmpeg has to join the libav project and not the other way around. And if this is unthinkable for ffmpeg developers, then why even start this discussion?

If Niedermayer truly wants both projects to merge then he can leave and shut ffmpeg down, thereby forcing the ffmpeg developers to join libav.

Is there any rational reason for this, apart of LibAV developers pride and selfishness, that seems to be at the same level as FFmpeg' ?

It's LibAV developers who forked to begin with, not FFmpeg's. LibAV is a smaller, objectively declining project that haven't shown any serious advantage compared to FFmpeg and has actual problems like handling security issues.

LibAV guys should take this opportunity to merge back to FFmpeg without Niedermayer bothering them if that was the problem.

[dragorth]

If the goal of ffmpeg were its developers, then such a decision might be termed courageous. As its focus is on its end users, ie the projects that consume ffmpeg and perhaps libav, then this would be an absolutely stupid idea.

First, the community that welcomes patches from the other community should not shut down when the other community doesn't accept patches from the first community.
Second, the folks that have chosen ffmpeg over libav have done so for a reason. Abandoning them for political reasons is not courageous, it is negligent.

Finally, if two groups of people cannot get along, the personality problem is with BOTH groups of people, not one or the other. You don't have to subjugate yourself to get along with others, and they don't have to subjugate themselves either. That is primitive thinking.

[Gusar]

If you want to see any good come out of a merge then ffmpeg has to join the libav project and not the other way around.

That makes no sense whatsoever.

ffmpeg has more features - more decoders, more filters. It is also objectively more secure, as it has a lot of vulnerability fixes which libav does not have. But here you are, saying that the ffmpeg devs should drop the superior codebase and move to the less featured, vulnerable codebase? To do what, fix those bugs all over again, re-implement all those decoders and filters? Dafuq?

It's the libav devs who forked, because they disagreed with Michael Niedermayer. He has now stepped away, which means the reason the libav folks went on their own is now not a reason anymore. So they should come back. *That* is the only course of action that makes sense. Objectively.

[wagaf]

If the goal of ffmpeg were its developers, then such a decision might be termed courageous. As its focus is on its end users, ie the projects that consume ffmpeg and perhaps libav, then this would be an absolutely stupid idea.

It's courageous because it acknowledges concerns from a clearly hostile group of people and tries to tackle those concerns, for the potential benefit of both projects.

If LibAV developers are so stubborn that they extend their hate to the whole FFmpeg project, then yes it will have been a stupid decision.

[sdack]

That makes no sense whatsoever.

ffmpeg has more features - more decoders, more filters. It is also objectively more secure, as it has a lot of vulnerability fixes which libav does not have. But here you are, saying that the ffmpeg devs should drop the superior codebase and move to the less featured, vulnerable codebase? To do what, fix those bugs all over again, re-implement all those decoders and filters? Dafuq?

It's the libav devs who forked, because they disagreed with Michael Niedermayer. He has now stepped away, which means the reason the libav folks went on their own is now not a reason anymore. So they should come back. *That* is the only course of action that makes sense. Objectively.

It is a matter of diplomacy. When you believe a group X should join a group Y, but find it unthinkable for group Y to join group X, then it shows a fundamental flaw in your understanding of how to create team work. Both sides need to give up their projects in order to cooperate, because they both need to end up with a new project. If your idea however is that ffmpeg stays and libav has to disappear, then you have not understood anything.

Libav was created, because a large group of developers had lost their trust in Niedermayer as their leader. Niedermayer can then step down, make flip-flops, do the moonwalk and what not. It will however not create any new trust. Only if the ffmpeg developers were now to join the libav project and accept the libav leadership as their new leadership would this reunite both projects and establish the necessary trust on the side of libav. Remind yourself that for the ffmpeg developers nothing ever has really changed and that the initiative for the split came entirely from the libav developers. Why should the libav developers now show again an initiative after they have created their own project with a new leadership, have put a lot of effort into it and over such a long time?

Of course, nobody has to merge with anybody just because someone has thrown out the idea with his resignation. The idea sure is not new and everyone knows it. So to me it is what it is - Niedermayer giving people horse shit for one last time. Good riddance I say. Each developer should decide on their own and in their own time, which leadership they want to follow in the future, and for this to happen does the ffmpeg project first need to find a new leadership.

[Gusar]

Both sides need to give up their projects in order to cooperate, because they both need to end up with a new project.

[...]

Only if the ffmpeg developers were now to join the libav project and accept the libav leadership as their new leadership would this reunite both projects and establish the necessary trust on the side of libav.

So first you say both projects need to be dropped, then you say ffmpeg devs should go to libav. Does not compute.

You're for some reason desperately trying to argue that libav is the supposed champ. But such contradictions in one and the same post will not convince anyone. In fact, your posts indicate that the pride and selfishness is on the libav side, completely contrary to your original claim.

You also have not addressed in the slightest the point about libav being objectively the lesser codebase and how doing it your way would require fixing bugs that were already fixed once and re-implementing decoders and filters that were already implemented.

[profoundWHALE]

It would be awesome if the FFmpeg and Libav guys ended up working merging their stuff into something much like mpv did.

[crymsonpheonix]

Niedermayer's idea of libav joining ffmpeg really is only another display of his selfishness. If you want to see any good come out of a merge then ffmpeg has to join the libav project and not the other way around. And if this is unthinkable for ffmpeg developers, then why even start this discussion?

Someone sounds personally involved here.

[Scimmia]

It is a matter of diplomacy. When you believe a group X should join a group Y, but find it unthinkable for group Y to join group X, then it shows a fundamental flaw in your understanding of how to create team work. Both sides need to give up their projects in order to cooperate, because they both need to end up with a new project. If your idea however is that ffmpeg stays and libav has to disappear, then you have not understood anything.

One project has no real users to speak of, and the other is distributed by every major distro out there. You really believe that they should abandon ffmpeg?

Libav was created, because a large group of developers had lost their trust in Niedermayer as their leader.

You can believe that if you want, but it was really all about ego, on both sides.