Systemd Gets A Stable Release Repository, Backports

[gens]

PS Teho went on troll bashing me
and i was having a conversation, not a holy crusade
so yes, i grow tired of half information taken out of any context what so ever for the sake of burring my opinion
i am not jesus to be kind to those

[interested]

so from your point of view there are only 3 big distros (ubuntu, debian, fedora and what comes of it)
since slackware is bigger then all the others (over 6%)

Yes, Red Hat (Fedora, CentOS, Sci-Linux Oracle Linux etc) Ubuntu, Debian (and the many derivates), and OpenSUSE etc. are the big, dominating Linux distros when it comes to user share, earning money, and developer power (paid or volunteer).
Slackware is a tiny blib on the radar. Don't get me wrong, I have a soft spot for Slackware and wish the best for Patrick and all the slackers, but it is a small niche distro. The lack of package management and other things make it a hard sell in the business environment (do Slack even GPG sign packages these days? are there paid developers besides PV?).

[snip]

and yes, desktop people have a loooong history of not cooperating
that is their problem
i think it is 'cuz they all artistic and want to do their thing

it does not mean we should all praise GNOME for being dependent on systemd
funny enough the official reasoning is multiseat support, that you can't do without a network in systemd

That attitude is exactly why systemd is winning everywhere; Instead of asking yourself and upstream "what can we do for upstream DE's to support non-systemd distros?" the systemd-opponents just goes on about how bad upstream is, claiming malice and bad intents everywhere.
KDE and Gnome and LXDE etc. are developing against systemd because it is an ubiquitous distro agnostic layer that makes it easy to develop powerful DE features and because they can dump old hard to maintain code at the same time.

The non-systemd distros have utterly failed in providing anything remotely as useful with no initiative to even try to make a coherent cross distro compatibility layer; they remain totally fragmented on even basic things like where the distro release info is hidden.

Both Gnome and KDE are happy to support non-systemd distros, but they don't seem to get any help in doing so, just snarky remarks and bad mouthing of their efforts.

cgroups are, as i become bored of repeating on phoronix, simple and easy
and in my opinion not that useful on the desktop, but that is my opinion

point is it can all be done with simple daemons
and yet systemd is being forced for no clear reason

Well, I think cgroup will be a natural part of all the major DE's; Desktops really can benefit from resource management, so that some updating background process doesn't interrupt a foreground process by stealing IO time (and no, "nice" isn't the answer).

I won't bother repeating all the good stuff that makes systemd such a good technology as it is. I don't care to convince you about its merits since you have already made up your mind. But I wish I can make my point clear, that alternative development and harmonization across those Linux distros that wants to remain non-systemd is crucial in helping upstream supporting them, and frankly, I don't see much of such positive, constructive effort from the systemd-opponents. So from where I see things, most of the remaining Linux distros will switch to systemd at some point in the future, if for nothing else, then the lack of support for doing anything else.

[Teho]

PS Teho went on troll bashing me
and i was having a conversation, not a holy crusade
so yes, i grow tired of half information taken out of any context what so ever for the sake of burring my opinion
i am not jesus to be kind to those

I have no intrest in your opinion nor am I "trolling" anyone here. I only question the (mis)information you are spreading because on a public forum even unfounded claims can spread fast.

[gens]

Yes, Red Hat (Fedora, CentOS, Sci-Linux Oracle Linux etc) Ubuntu, Debian (and the many derivates), and OpenSUSE etc. are the big, dominating Linux distros when it comes to user share, earning money, and developer power (paid or volunteer).
Slackware is a tiny blib on the radar. Don't get me wrong, I have a soft spot for Slackware and wish the best for Patrick and all the slackers, but it is a small niche distro. The lack of package management and other things make it a hard sell in the business environment (do Slack even GPG sign packages these days? are there paid developers besides PV?).




That attitude is exactly why systemd is winning everywhere; Instead of asking yourself and upstream "what can we do for upstream DE's to support non-systemd distros?" the systemd-opponents just goes on about how bad upstream is, claiming malice and bad intents everywhere.
KDE and Gnome and LXDE etc. are developing against systemd because it is an ubiquitous distro agnostic layer that makes it easy to develop powerful DE features and because they can dump old hard to maintain code at the same time.

The non-systemd distros have utterly failed in providing anything remotely as useful with no initiative to even try to make a coherent cross distro compatibility layer; they remain totally fragmented on even basic things like where the distro release info is hidden.

Both Gnome and KDE are happy to support non-systemd distros, but they don't seem to get any help in doing so, just snarky remarks and bad mouthing of their efforts.




Well, I think cgroup will be a natural part of all the major DE's; Desktops really can benefit from resource management, so that some updating background process doesn't interrupt a foreground process by stealing IO time (and no, "nice" isn't the answer).

I won't bother repeating all the good stuff that makes systemd such a good technology as it is. I don't care to convince you about its merits since you have already made up your mind. But I wish I can make my point clear, that alternative development and harmonization across those Linux distros that wants to remain non-systemd is crucial in helping upstream supporting them, and frankly, I don't see much of such positive, constructive effort from the systemd-opponents. So from where I see things, most of the remaining Linux distros will switch to systemd at some point in the future, if for nothing else, then the lack of support for doing anything else.

well there are businesses based on slackware, microlinux being one of them
from what i know it can be harder to set up, but less maintenance
to be honest i think big companies are having less and less percentage market share, but that is closer to politics

and yes, there are plenty of people around slackware
there is salix that has dependency resolution and is basically newbie friendly slackware (full backwards compatibility)
there are also plenty of slackbuilds for almost anything and a couple tools around them (can't say about resolving dependencies, they are however documented)
(making custom packages and/or slackbuilds is not that hard either)


thing is KDE will accept patches for other systems, but GNOME won't
and distro packagers can't be arsed and that is reasonable


...
well i guess its back to psychology
whatever

you can put that program that updates in a cgroup when starting it
like... idk, in a executable shell script ran by cron
if you feel you need systemd for it, ok fine

i like linux for its flexibility and diversity
you should check out the annual "why linux sucks" and "why linux DOESN'T suck" right after it

[finalzone]

well there are businesses based on slackware, microlinux being one of them
from what i know it can be harder to set up, but less maintenance
to be honest i think big companies are having less and less percentage market share, but that is closer to politics


and yes, there are plenty of people around slackware
there is salix that has dependency resolution and is basically newbie friendly slackware (full backwards compatibility)
there are also plenty of slackbuilds for almost anything and a couple tools around them (can't say about resolving dependencies, they are however documented)
(making custom packages and/or slackbuilds is not that hard either)

You need to back up your claim about slackware statistics. When Slackware will adopt systemd, MicroLinux will follow the suit.

well i guess its back to psychology
whatever

you can put that program that updates in a cgroup when starting it
like... idk, in a executable shell script ran by cron
if you feel you need systemd for it, ok fine

It seems like you do not know how the core system really works.
Shell scripts were proved unmaintainable for the long time within 20 years of Linux with the added complexity.
systemd with its units files eliminated most complex shell scripts removing the maintenance stress from the administrators themselves.
Alternative had four years to show a better solution and utterly failed. Case in example, cgroup change from the Linux kernel itself handled by systemd development team within a year, nothing from alternatives preferring waiting after the fact.

i like linux for its flexibility and diversity

Core system needs solid foundation, having a single init everyone agreed to use remove the burden of maintenance and fragmentation which plagued Linux for more than 20 years.
Systemd, an umbrella project having a tremendous participation for not only distributions but medium and large companies from embedded to supercomputers shows the approach is correct. Diversity is still for desktop environments using a common ground provided by systemd.
You are free not to use systemd, prepare yourselves handling legacy software left by majority of developers and administrators.

[profoundWHALE]

Yes. And add to this that the systemd opposition never managed to provide an alternative. Canonical tried but they gave up because of the maintenance burden.

They do try to follow Debian packages, and there's the many compatibility issues that would arise and they are already using part of systemd anyways...

I'm really glad systemd took it. Like others said, it is the perfect solution to a problem that has been going on for years.

[curaga]

Well, I think cgroup will be a natural part of all the major DE's; Desktops really can benefit from resource management, so that some updating background process doesn't interrupt a foreground process by stealing IO time (and no, "nice" isn't the answer).

I find ionice works excellently for that, and I use exlusively spinning rust.

[Gusar]

quoting things in separations kills context, thus killing the meaning of the things quoted

Nice trick. But it won't fly. Unless you explain exactly how I've misinterpreted your words.

if you read this whole conversation that i was not having with you

This is a public forum with many participants, not a private conversation between two people.

you would see that it started by one person misinterpreting what a well respected BDFL of a well respected distribution stated a long time ago
it was not for troll bait, and yet there were trolls

It may have started there, but you again claiming how things systemd does are so very simple and could easily be done without systemd is not connected to that. How could it be connected, when you've said the same words in other threads that weren't about a BDFL.

there are many opinions
you can have your own one
if you plan on sharing it with others, good
don't share it with me unless you want to hear mine
simple as that

But you don't present an "opinion". You present declarative statements. Without backing them up. If you want your words to have merit, back them up! Like I backed up mine in that other thread by pointing to an explanation about why systemd does cgroups in pid1.

Also I can turn things around on you - you know what you did in that thread? Instead of hearing and acknowledging a different view (what you're asking of me here), you... called me a troll. What good are your words if you don't even follow them yourself.

only thing systemd brings to the desktop is logind that does some basics

You probably think this is you expressing "opinion". But you see, it's not opinion. It's a declarative statement about what systemd supposedly brings to a DE. And it's just plain wrong. systemd --user brings a lot more to DEs than just logind. And logind itself does more than "some basics". If that was the case, why isn't there an alternative doing the same "basics"? There was consolekit, but despite calls to continue maintaining it, no one did so, so now consolekit is unmaintained and bitrotting.

See, I do hear your "opinion". But when it contains pretty much direct falsehoods, I will call you out on it. Because it serves no one when misinformation is being spread.

if i personally wanted cgroups on my desktop, i would put things into cgroups using the shell and the cgroups filesystem
if it were up to systemd way http://www.linux.com/news/featured-b...roups-redesign
i would not be able to do it so simply since the filesystem would be removed
i would have to write a C program to do something that usually takes about 20 sec to do
also with the filesystem being there it can be easily done for background services in scripts, be they shell, python, java, ruby, whatever

It's not the systemd guys that pushed for the single cgroup arbitrator, the redesign originates from the kernel developers. Also you said cgroups are simple. Now they're suddenly not simple anymore. How can I then value your opinion if it's not even consistent. And your pointing of fingers (at the wrong party even) will not make your argument stronger.

[blackout23]

Debian crybaby users are hilarious.

https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/03/msg00000.html

https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/03/msg00001.html

[psychoticmeow]

well there are businesses based on slackware, microlinux being one of them
from what i know it can be harder to set up, but less maintenance
to be honest i think big companies are having less and less percentage market share, but that is closer to politics

and yes, there are plenty of people around slackware
there is salix that has dependency resolution and is basically newbie friendly slackware (full backwards compatibility)
there are also plenty of slackbuilds for almost anything and a couple tools around them (can't say about resolving dependencies, they are however documented)
(making custom packages and/or slackbuilds is not that hard either)


thing is KDE will accept patches for other systems, but GNOME won't
and distro packagers can't be arsed and that is reasonable


...
well i guess its back to psychology
whatever

you can put that program that updates in a cgroup when starting it
like... idk, in a executable shell script ran by cron
if you feel you need systemd for it, ok fine

i like linux for its flexibility and diversity
you should check out the annual "why linux sucks" and "why linux DOESN'T suck" right after it

What in the fuck. I think you just broke my brain with your badly formatted drivel, what the fuck is wrong with you?