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Mono 2.11.3 Packs In Microsoft's Entity Framework

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  • #31
    yeah right

    If Microsoft ever released the source to an old version of windows or MS Access or Word or Excel, THAT would be a "genuine" contribution.

    What is to be learned from viewing Microsoft's current "open source"??? How to interface to Microsoft's virtualization. How to generate non-standard SQL. Woo-woo! Lessons to be learned!


    • #32
      Originally posted by frantaylor View Post
      google's open souce contributions are used by people who pay no money to google

      RedHat's open souce contributions are used by people who pay no money to RedHat

      Microsoft's open source contributions are usless unless you pay money to microsoft.

      Did that distinction just fly right over your head?

      I'm working with node.js on my Fedora desktop and I didn't have to pay google or RedHat a dime.

      THAT is what "free software" is about.
      And yet Google and Red Hat are making money off you. Google by selling your information and web clicks, Red Hat by the free testing. You are certainly showing them who is boss.


      • #33
        want a comparison???

        would you like a comparison?

        Let's compare google's support for javascript with Microsoft's support for C#

        Google has a single portable code base (V8) for all supported platforms. They embed it in their browser and they encourage other people to embed it in their browsers. They put a whole bunch of smart people into its development, so it's COMPILED DIRECTLY TO NATIVE CODE, and it's FAST FAST FAST. It's so useful that it's been split out as a server product (node.js) that even MICROSOFT uses because it's so good.

        Microsoft has multiple code bases for C# support. Windows has "first class" support, while the other platforms have to resort to another incomplete code base from a small third-party with uncertain funding and an uncertain future. In practice it's not used by much of anybody because the level of support is so uneven.

        So google's contribution of javascript has enhanced many other free software projects, while Microsoft's contributions sit by themselves, unused by the mainstream.


        • #34
          Originally posted by yogi_berra View Post
          And yet Google and Red Hat are making money off you.
          good for them, manufacturing value from nothing

          Doesn't affect MY bottom line nor YOURS either
          Last edited by frantaylor; 08-14-2012, 02:42 PM.


          • #35
            Originally posted by uid313 View Post
            PHP is an interpreted language
            FALSE- PHP is a TEMPLATING LANGUAGE. Separated from the other half-

            Originally posted by uid313 View Post
            so .NET is much much faster than PHP.
            Also FALSE- this depends on volume, much like PHP vs lets say, J2EE. PHP is, when written correctly, a HELL of alot faster and scalable. Not to mention PHP is in the same form as .NET when the request hits the box- bytecode.... so your compiled vs TEMPLATING LANGUAGE is also bull.

            Originally posted by uid313 View Post
            Also with .NET you have access to the whole .NET framework, a huge set of libraries which you can do much more than you can do with PHP.
            Care to tell us one thing, ANY ONE THING, you can do in .NET that you cannot do with PHP and open source libraries that work with it?

            Originally posted by uid313 View Post
            With ASP.NET you have a nice debugger and a huge framework.
            Ease of development, especially best practices development, is not PHP's strong point.

            Originally posted by uid313 View Post
            Comparing PHP to ASP.NET is comparing apples and pears. PHP is just a language. ASP.NET is a whole framework.
            Apples and pears are both fruit. The difference here is, PHP is proven in extremely high volume where ASP.NET is mitigated to mid-tier at best. Not to mention that the number of PHP (web application developer) jobs out there exceed Ruby, Python, and ASP.NET _combined_.

            Originally posted by uid313 View Post
            I have been developing PHP for years, and still do some PHP development at home.
            Given your comments, I'd say you "played" with PHP, rather than "developed" in PHP.

            Don't get me wrong, PHP definitely has its tradeoffs and minuses... but you should know what you're talking about before you talk, not after.


            • #36
              Microsoft could have just used java

              The recent Google-Oracle case shows us that Microsoft didn't HAVE to invent a new language to compete with Sun.

              They could have made their own clean-room java implementation and spared us all from a look-alike language that's clearly just a knee-jerk reaction.

              But NO they took the Sun implementation and violated the contract, and used it as a pretense to take us developers on a wild and useless ride.

              They had problems with java for sure, but they could have submitted proposals and developed solutuions to fix the problems, just like everyone else did.

              They weren't interested in helping developers, they used C# as a weapon against java.


              • #37
                Originally posted by frantaylor View Post
                they don't have to support it anymore, get suckers to do it for them.
                Is that really what you think? You think people who file bugs, and do testing of advanced features are suckers? You're basically calling me a sucker, and anybody else for that matter who purposefully looks for these things on purpose to help make the software that we use more stable in the long run.

                You think Marek Olsak(for example, there are plenty of others) is a sucker for bringing better features to AMD drivers and other such things?(AFAIK, he is still an "independent" contributor, which means AMD is not paying him) The entire KDE team are volunteers, as I am sitting here thinking about it....... "suckers", to use your word.

                This is exactly what I mean about irrational hatred of MS.

                It's very difficult for anybody to sit there and say "well those guys are suckers", but "my guys are as clean as the wind driven snow" when realistically, it's the exact same thing on both sides. I don't seek out/contribute bug reports for Redhat's, or Novell's, or IBM's, or anybody else's benefit. I see the benefit for myself so I'm happy to do it. Ditto for independent developers of all stripes who are not paid by any companies which may end up financially gaining off of said advances. They're doing it for their own benefit.

                It's time you took a step back and actually read the vitriol and venom that you're spewing.


                • #38
                  Everytime Mono comes up, I swear... Anyhow, I'm unfarmiliar with "Entitiy Framework" but I am glad to see progress where so many other projects stagnant. Wish he would turn his attention to drivers or something =).


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by halfmanhalfamazing View Post
                    Is that really what you think?
                    His point still has validity. Google is making help-oneself-help-everyone moves while Microsoft continually fails with obvious help-Microsoft contributions. They aren't interested in making .NET a cross platform product, and never have been. They're just looking at how to get good PR and make sales... they can advertise .NET as cross platform, but when the time comes their customers cannot do cross platform with Mono.

                    The obvious solution is to make Mono the official .NET implementation and promote that, but they aren't.... because they want to promote Windows.

                    Originally posted by halfmanhalfamazing View Post
                    This is exactly what I mean about irrational hatred of MS.
                    Its hardly irrational. They're greeted with skepticism and hatred because their acts depict who they are and how they treat their customers. The more their position is threatened, the more they open up to other business models, and the more humble they get.

                    Microsoft hasn't changed at all in the last 10 years. Aggressive, cut-throat, do ANYTHING to get the customer and then keep them locked in. What we're seeing now isn't a reduction of the cut-throat behavior- but a sign that Microsoft's position has been incredibly upset by real competition. They cannot afford bad PR and reputation- they MUST act cautiously or their entire business is threatened at this point. That's the only difference- the leverage they have over their customers has weakened. Does their weakened position immediately warrant everyone's sympathy? I think not.


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by frantaylor View Post
                      "Entity frameworks" are nothing more than pure bloat.

                      If you need an "entity framework" it's a symptom: you are not doing it right.

                      Use a database with semantics that match your application, and you don't need no steenkin "entity framework".

                      How nice of Microsoft to encourage bad software design.

                      Leave it to Microsoft to come up with designs like this:

                      - developer wants to store key-value pairs

                      - "entity framework" creates SQL queries to model "key-value" store

                      - SQL database parses SQL queries and performs "key-value" operations on its underlying database.

                      So here we have creation of SQL code and the subsequent parsing of this SQL code for NO REASON WHATSOEVER.

                      Let's say you're a developer that made your small application that stores a contact list. Later you noticed that you rewrite every time your algorithms of searching, filtering and such. And the most natural choice to not redo them and to not think too much on how you store them, etc. to use Linq and as a backend code to use a database.
                      Entity can create in basically no time this part.
                      Also Entity handles typical cases (that most developers writing their .ini or .xml files in the back will not do it) like: schema changes, migrations, changing the backing store and even the database type in a transparent way.
                      Can you do it better? Maybe! But certainly the Entity solves problems that most novices will not know how to overcome, or even they will do it, they will do it badly.
                      Another reason why people should use Entity is the way to make a website: MVC3 (or MVC4) is great to make fairly fast a website, but setting a database is painful, so is easier to make with your own collections first (in Entity parlance is "Code first" and after that make a backing database).
                      At the end Entity brings a native objects ORM that has maybe a performance hit, but it works smoothly with minimum code for most users.