Originally posted by elanthis
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Mono 2.11 Release Brings Many Changes
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News for those of us that don't write fart-apps:
Java SE 10 and beyond will have a unified type system
Self-tuning JVMs are coming
JVMs will soon be hypervisor-aware.
Java 10 will have true generics and multidimensional arrays
GPU support will come in Java 9, though I fear that we'll have to wait for Java 10 for it to become truly useful.
Oracle is looking at switching to OpenJDK as their primary development stack.
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Originally posted by elanthis View PostLinux desktop ecosystem that is being politically forced into using antiquated and dev-time-inefficient languages and toolkits
You are a f*cking baby who claims it's all some 'political conspiracy' because people don't think your goddamn pet language/framework is the second coming of christ and then you have the gall to complain about other people bitching and whining when you do nothing but bitch and whine, you hypocritical assh*le.
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Originally posted by XorEaxEax View PostLol how the f*ck is anyone 'politically forced' into using any languages on Linux? Lol, it's the platform where you are certainly NOT forced either by political nor platform lockin means to use any particular programming language, EVERYTHING is available and there's no goddamn lock-in app store or any other artificial barrier forcing you to use a specific framework in order to be allowed on the platform.
You are a f*cking baby who claims it's all some 'political conspiracy' because people don't think your goddamn pet language/framework is the second coming of christ and then you have the gall to complain about other people bitching and whining when you do nothing but bitch and whine, you hypocritical assh*le.
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Originally posted by kraftman View PostElanthis is just a proprietary fanboy who has no clue about reality. He proved this after writing about security and games. The only barrier regarding mono is it didn't prove it brings advantages.
There are a lot of cases where Mono was and is still used, from (smart)phones to servers, and on the way includes the Linux desktop.This is why C# is higher rated than C++ in TIOBE index: http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/conte...pci/index.html (as of time of writing).
And I know, is about proprietary folks that are taking here, right?
I work(ed) in OSS, with .Net and yes, is possible. Is not as major project that you may think, but it give the very same thing you asked for: CAD software. It does not work for Linux and I know that no one worked hard enough to port it for Linux, but the core code could theoretically once work on Linux.
In comparison, there are a lot of reasons why a C# platform would bring advantages, you may heard about them, one of them is the GC. You may like Java more, and is fine about it. You may like type inference (yes, I know is a part of C++ 11), reflection, and so on. And yes, maybe the revision C++ 2021 would bring all these features in C++, and you will wait 5 more years to be supported by all mainstream compilers before writing code with Linq.
TIOBE index proves that the 6th platform is an interpreter (PHP), after that a low end compiler (Visual Basic), then JavaScript, then Python.
The combined percents of users of first 10 languages, comparing managed (with a virtual machine or a runtime, different than libStdC++ or native) against native ones, you will see that managed languages are more used (by a small margin) in todays software.
C# as language, after Java is the second most popular language using a virtual machine, doesn't seem to you that it is used almost everywhere, or at least is fairly useful for normal people?
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Originally posted by kraftman View PostElanthis is just a proprietary fanboy who has no clue about reality. He proved this after writing about security and games. The only barrier regarding mono is it didn't prove it brings advantages.
that's the major reason I won't touch it.
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Originally posted by ciplogic View PostWhy are you building the same strawmens over and over. You ask: give a case of Mono to have advantages, but you never accept one! And given just one advantage is enough to prove its existance!
There are a lot of cases where Mono was and is still used, from (smart)phones to servers, and on the way includes the Linux desktop.This is why C# is higher rated than C++ in TIOBE index: http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/conte...pci/index.html (as of time of writing).
And I know, is about proprietary folks that are taking here, right?
I work(ed) in OSS, with .Net and yes, is possible. Is not as major project that you may think, but it give the very same thing you asked for: CAD software. It does not work for Linux and I know that no one worked hard enough to port it for Linux, but the core code could theoretically once work on Linux.
In comparison, there are a lot of reasons why a C# platform would bring advantages, you may heard about them, one of them is the GC. You may like Java more, and is fine about it. You may like type inference (yes, I know is a part of C++ 11), reflection, and so on. And yes, maybe the revision C++ 2021 would bring all these features in C++, and you will wait 5 more years to be supported by all mainstream compilers before writing code with Linq.
TIOBE index proves that the 6th platform is an interpreter (PHP), after that a low end compiler (Visual Basic), then JavaScript, then Python.
The combined percents of users of first 10 languages, comparing managed (with a virtual machine or a runtime, different than libStdC++ or native) against native ones, you will see that managed languages are more used (by a small margin) in todays software.
C# as language, after Java is the second most popular language using a virtual machine, doesn't seem to you that it is used almost everywhere, or at least is fairly useful for normal people?Last edited by kraftman; 24 March 2012, 04:55 AM.
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"Some paint like program isn't so interesting, don't you think?"
"Try to compare mono applications to entire KDE and Gnome stack"
"Too bad .Net nearly doesn't even exist on Windows if we're talking about serious (desktop) things"
"99% of games and professional applications aren't written in .Net
Also, even Mono/.Net would not be capable at all to make games, that would simply make it to not write AAA games. This doesn't make it undesirable to not write desktop applications, or to not be on Linux. I never sow a Bash-based 3D game, and I'm sure that I will not see any of them soon, but it doesn't make it to not exist on Linux, right?
"If mono brings many advantages companies like Red Hat should give it a try someday."
At the end if you mean about RHEL, and RedHat as a corporation, I think they are not necessarily against Mono, but they are a big supporter of virtualization and Java applications stacks (because they own JBoss), and I am aware of Java's stack and you have a lot of equivalents in Java world of the .Net classes (some historically were appeared in Java first later made into .Net, like NUnit, Ant build system).
At the end I know companies that they use .Net (or Java for that matter, because 5 years in the past had the same criticism) for simplifying the deploying or simpler automation and working environment. Do you want Unicode? Which Unicode format you want to use? UTF-8? UTF-16? Java/.Net/Mono handle everything for you. Do you want type-checked build automation, most likely you would want to use Ant (or Nant). Is easy to make an XML that you can validate upfront that some build issues would not appear because a person mistype a script line.
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Originally posted by kraftman View Post99% of games and professional applications aren't written in .Net
There are a lot of .Net professional grade desktop applications. Or Java ones. Most of the mainstream applications that you know them from 90's are written in C/C++ because is hard to remove the old code without a replacement. But Eclipse RCP (Rich Client Platform) is used in a lot of "professional grade applications". Other may use Adobe AIR (like the HTC Sync I use to work with my mobile phone, and yes, it depend on .Net), or may use to one platform Qt and on other .Net (I'm talking about AMD's Catalyst Control Panel). It was already told on other post on a forum, most major CAD players offer .Net SDKs (AutoCAD, SolidWorks, Rhino), 3D modellers (3dsmax) - a field I was related with. I know other software packages that use for example Java because it uses better Database connectors, even they are C++ SDKs (Embarcadero's database management tools), or they use just for a sub-feature. I recommend to see about Microsoft tooling (which is using .Net in most of cases, and embeds the C++ core in an embedded window, like Expression Blend) or IBM/Oracle tooling (which is Java based, like Eclipse/NetBeans Rich Client Platforms, for example: IBM's Lotus Symphony was Eclipse based).
Why 99%? And if you mean that the applications have to be fully written in C# (or any .Net based language), I think no developer today uses one language (excluding is a very old codebase). People use HTML5/Javascript/CSS, or Java/JavaFX/SQL/Xml or C#/Xaml/Xml/SQL most of the times.
In software like time critical software, C++ may be desirable, and I know people using Java in time-critical software (just if given the opportunity to warmup and tune the VM). London Stock Exchange is written in Java (as replaced .Net) but they did not went to C++. Why? If you think that because the database code is written in C++, so this is why they get this huge speedup, they use Oracle, and the time-consuming part of querying of Oracle's DBs is written in Java too.
To say that 99% are written in native code, is bogus. Sometimes you wouldn't want that, you don't want to have big binary for some small code that do update your repository, when is clearly that the slow part of the operation may be the internet connection. Most big applications I know, they combine frameworks, so they would want to see which framework solve what and if is easier to use C# way, the developer would pick the C#, if is the C++ way, would pick C++, and so on. Most of Disk Defragmenters today are made in Delphi (bleah, I dislike the language and the IDE) or C#. You may not care about this, but it is certainly that the disk is the 50 times slower than any C# code, so speeding the C# code rewriting it in C++, would give to you for a 10x speedup supposedly that you may achieve with C++, a per application 1-2 % speedup (even less!).
WPF applications are fairly fast (given are well written, after they do start up) as they use technologies that appeared accessible in C++ (Direct2D like) later with Windows 7. I recommend to try (if you use Windows) these tools that are free. Try them and say if you notice a too slow speed. I do know that they have some C++ code in the back, but they are mainly written in C# and I don't feel it this (excluding I would use XP and will ask me to install .Net to finish the installer).Last edited by ciplogic; 24 March 2012, 12:56 PM.
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