The KDE vs. GNOME Schism In Free Software

[ninez]

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/2102021-post6.html

thanks Liam

For those who don't understand what is being said there, and why it is important. higher latency = more jitter ... more jitter = not capturing your performance accurately.

cheerz

[ninez]

@Ninez,

/***************************\
First point
\***************************/
Music 'workstations' are all digital and thus electronic music.

Depends on what you are referring to as 'electronic music'. It's digitally recorded, yes - but 'eletronic music' - typically/historically, refers to a genre of music. Not the fact it was recorded digitally. But really, what relevance does this even have?

Electronic music these days are no longer 8bit bleeps and booms; it's sounds, vocals, strings, entire studio performances, etc. being recorded and edited/

Any proffesional (including you, which you are, right?) knows that.

You are speaking of a particular set of workflows (vaguely), and it would seem you are also speaking about a specific genre(and sub-genres), AFAIK people record all sorts of music digitally - the flow of the Ableton crowd, hiphop crowd, techno crowd, etc - isn't *universal*. again, what relevance does this have (none).

You are making a grand assumption that all music is recorded the exact same way, but AFAIK its NOT. ie: you don't record a jazz/rock/blues/live band using sample banks, chopped up, etc. So the conclusion you are drawing is retarded. That being said, a live band may very well have some keyboard tracks recorded with midi, or have massive samplebanks, but that still doesn't make it universal. Thus, your argument is pointless /null and void.

Proffesional keyboards have speakers. They record over midi, which doesn't require playback through the workstation speakers, while being recorded.

some do, some don't.(if you meant actual speakers)... outputs? yes - as long as they have a sound module, and aren't just a midi-controller... ...and NO - keyboards aren't always going to be recorded using midi, sometimes you may own a keyboard that soundbanks better than VSTs, and will be inputting it directly. Especially the really high-end stuff - so you are again, incorrect in your assumptions..

These programs have (endless amounts of) timelines. Any delay below 21ms playback of being also seen on the timeline(s) is absolute bullshit.

Mostly correct - depending on BPM, time-signature. (if it is heavily syncipated and at a fast BPM, then no.) And it still doesn't change the fact, that for recording you want low-latency, and that 20ms is high latency for playing, and the human ear can hear it, and that is NOT ideal, or particularily suitable - unless you're a hack, and can't actually play keyboard very well, and just need to capture some chords, a bass line - inwhich case, you aren't going to be affected as much, cause you're more of a producer than performer (so there is no natural feeling there anyway).

furthermore, my example of triplets - still stands. I have seen this Protools, Logic9, Ableton live, Ardour3, oomidi, renoise - all fail at being able to capture fast playing. Quantization exists for a reason. that should be pretty obvious.

/***************************\
Second point
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Now the brain raplacement part.

Any human can deal with delays. Saying otherwise is retarded. I only need to give you the wireless mouse example and we're effectively done talking on this one.

Wireless mouse vs. live instruments - that is retarded... LOL - you just officailly lost that one, ya - you're right we are effectively done on this one!

That is a terrible example. Using wireless or bluetooth creates massive latency, it might be suitable for point and clicking on your desktop - but if you think it is acceptable for playing music - you would be 100% wrong. How do i know this?

well, i've used both iPad with a computer/in Logic and i have also used Wiimote - including the wiidrums.

Wireless, is not suitable. You will be able to compinsate for 1/8 and 1/16 notes, anything beyond that will need to be quantized, as it will be inaccurate!

/***************************\
New points
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Callings names is pathetic, and I hope you don't do this in your profesional environment. So stop being so delusional to be 100% right, just because you have some limited experience in audio reps. That's seriously pathetic, man.

sorry, if you don't like that i've mangled you handle, but i could care less. I also could care less if you think that i am pathetic or not. I don't need to be 100% right. But i have no problem, pointed your idiocy (althoughy, i have restrained myself, most times - even though the majority of your other posts are retarded).

Clearly, i have more audio experience than either of you, so ya, i can contest something you say. If i am in a restuarant and someone starts to have a medical problem or starts to choke, i want the off-duty doctor, or emergency worker to handle it - not someone asshole who wants to be a hero. So, yes - knowledge is important.

what is pathetic is you, coming in here to defend BLacktard, when it's obvious, you just have beef with me over the last time. How transparent, and funny.

I know BlackStar is a troll at times, and maybe he is now, but he is right. I'd say back up your shit, or calm down. Maybe you should do both.

I am unbelievably calm, i find this all funny. Blacktard was wrong on almost all accounts, and your latest incarnation of dribble, is also either not relevant, or simply incorrect.

What's funny is that the definition of ignorance comes from ignoring due to self-rightious thinking because of some experience/titel. I guess that's you.

you can think i am ignorant all you like. That doesn't mean much coming from you V!GNORANT (there was a reason, i called you that months ago, it still stands today!)

But, you know what is even more ignorant than someone having limited experience, and being rightous???

someone who has zero (at even less experience) and gets all rightous, while not really having a clue.

*cough* - both of you

[liam]

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/2102021-post6.html

[V!NCENT]

@Ninez,

/***************************\
First point
\***************************/
Music 'workstations' are all digital and thus electronic music.

Electronic music these days are no longer 8bit bleeps and booms; it's sounds, vocals, strings, entire studio performances, etc. being recorded and edited/pasted in a music editing program and/or collection of programs thereof.

Any proffesional (including you, which you are, right?) knows that.

Proffesional keyboards have speakers. They record over midi, which doesn't require playback through the workstation speakers, while being recorded.

These programs have (endless amounts of) timelines. Any delay below 21ms playback of being also seen on the timeline(s) is absolute bullshit.


/***************************\
Second point
\***************************/
Now the brain raplacement part.

Any human can deal with delays. Saying otherwise is retarded. I only need to give you the wireless mouse example and we're effectively done talking on this one.


/***************************\
New points
\***************************/
Callings names is pathetic, and I hope you don't do this in your profesional environment. So stop being so delusional to be 100% right, just because you have some limited experience in audio reps. That's seriously pathetic, man.

I know BlackStar is a troll at times, and maybe he is now, but he is right. I'd say back up your shit, or calm down. Maybe you should do both.

What's funny is that the definition of ignorance comes from ignoring due to self-rightious thinking because of some experience/titel. I guess that's you.

[ninez]

This will be legendary (and historical) because I'm going to defend BlackStar (come to think that that day would ever come ).

Oh hi, V!GNORANT. Nice to see you again. Unfortunately, just like the last time we got into a spat - you don't really have anything insightful or relevant to say, and here is why;

@Ninez,

If your brain can't adjust to 20ms delay, you need a new one.

-Vincent

Ya, musicians just love a delay when playing instruments, and/or recording them. Same goes with recording voice. In case, you can't tell - that is sarcasm. It's not a matter of adjusting to the delay, it comes down to precision and accurate recordings.

to quote myself;

You do realize that a real piano is somewhere around 8ms, and most analog keyboards are lower than that too, right?

and

cceptable latency under different workloads... Simple, using a midi keyboard and having accurate sounding audio - 20ms is too high. You've already said the opposite. (which beyond a shadow of a doubt, illustrates that you don't know what you talking about) I've already explained this - you should have no more than 8ms, if you actually intend to be playing it.... Recording (live instruments, midi) - requires low-latency, for the 'capture' to be accurate. (otherwise with midi, you might as well be step-sequencing, or having to quantize your playing - losing all actual 'natural' feel.

I guess you missed that eh?

So, it really doesn't come down to whether or not i can adjust to 20ms delay or not. It isn't suitable. When recording or playing - you want the LEAST amount of latency, and not to have to adjust... especially, since you have to consider that even if you could adjust (which you are correct, adjusting to 20ms isn't hard for the brain to do) that is most certainly not the case, when playing with other musicians and/or recorded parts, especially when recording - you want accuracy, and latency interferes with that. furthermore, try playing a fast piece of music on a keyboard with higher-latency, listen as all of your triplets and rolls sound like 'shoes in the dryer' - and it is literally - a no brainer to realize that, if you work with audio/midi.

So V!GRNORANT, you jumping into this argument is completely pointless. You just brought a completely pointless argument, that doesn't even apply, and really doesn't even make sense. Furthermore, there really isn't any argument to be made.

Not surprising though

bye bye

[ninez]

And I rest my case.

PS:

No and no.

I think you mean positively YES to a). , while i will say b). maybe a little more grey. But the fact is your assertion that with alsa you get 200ms latency, vs. PA 20ms ~ tells me, your system is configured badly. Anyway, here is exactly why you can't claim 'no' to a). ;

The solution? Pulseaudio. A trivial configuration change and I get 20ms latency - and that's on a netbook

*20ms on a netbook without dedicated hardware is awesome*

What I did was use a MIDI keyboard to tune my drumset to specific notes. 20ms latency is perfectly fine for that.

But as I said, overreacting much. You didn't even bother to ask what I was trying to do and just charged ahead blindly.

you didn't say "20ms on a netbook without dedicated hardware is awesome --> *if using a keyboard to tune a drumset*." no no, blacktard, what you said is that 20ms ... is 'awesome'. followed by a period, ending the sentence...That doesn't imply the use case you are now tacking onto it. Furthermore, 200ms would be suitable for that task - which makes that argument /dev/null...

If you can't spot the difference between those two statements ~ do not assume that other people can't. - That was a very dishonest, ingenious, and equally pathetic attempt at trying to cover your own stupidity. - and that is really funny

So in reality, blacktard - from a). to f). applies to you, with only b). having any grey area AT ALL! Thank you for admitting that. Yoiu may be dumb and a total duche ~ but atleast your willing to admit that.

And the funny thing is that we actually agree on everything other than PA vs dmix and your attitude. My original argument was that there's no reason to use dmix anymore, because PA does everything dmix did, and does it better.

I still concede that is very arguable. but we don't have to agree on that, as i already pointed out.

You somehow turned that into a strawman about latency, JACK, audio production and your penis size - you know what? Off-topic. And completely entertaining.

Thanks for making my day.

It didn't turn into a strawman about latency, etc - if you don't seem remember i will help you then;

the turning point was when I tried to use a MIDI keyboard with pure ALSA. Impossible

You then proceed to say PA fixed your problem and made it work, but it sounds to me like ALSA wasn't configured properly, as 200ms is ridiculous.

The audio workstation stuff came up after, when i gave a prime example of a product using ALSA, and later proceeded to also say that my workstation (and all of my other machines) have much lower latency (significantly) with ALSA. You went on to say that ALSA is completely useless, as well. You are simply wrong. You can argue all you like, but in the end it doesn't matter - you're still straight up wrong! You also went on to say, that i don't know anything about audio/latency/etc, and told me to go and read up on it, but then you go on to say - that you actually agree with me on almost all points;

here's the thing - that is a huge contradiction - and you can't have it both ways. You are so incredibly full of crap.. Just another reason to call you blacktard i suppose

cheerz

[V!NCENT]

This will be legendary (and historical) because I'm going to defend BlackStar (come to think that that day would ever come ).

@Ninez,

If your brain can't adjust to 20ms delay, you need a new one.

-Vincent

[BlackStar]

And I rest my case.

PS:

a). said 20ms was low-latency and suitable for a midi-keyboard
b). tried to use PA to achieve low latency with alsa-midi

No and no.

What I did was use a MIDI keyboard to tune my drumset to specific notes. 20ms latency is perfectly fine for that.

But as I said, overreacting much. You didn't even bother to ask what I was trying to do and just charged ahead blindly.

And the funny thing is that we actually agree on everything other than PA vs dmix and your attitude. My original argument was that there's no reason to use dmix anymore, because PA does everything dmix did, and does it better. You somehow turned that into a strawman about latency, JACK, audio production and your penis size - you know what? Off-topic. And completely entertaining.

Thanks for making my day.

[ninez]

Ninez, you keep trying to troll but it's just not working. Maddening, isn't it?

You may think i am trolling, but the fact is, until you admit to putting words in my mouth, making up shit and creating fallacies there is no point to this conversation. You're full of shit...and as far as being maddening? -> what are you even talking about, dumb ass?

do you actually think i am upset or something?!?! LOLOLOLOLOL. dude, you couldn't get under my skin, even if you tried your very best - your a total fucking retard.

Then again, you can't even understand the difference between a netbook and an audio production workstation, so anything else I might say would simply go right over your head.

Oh, i completely understand the difference between a netbook and audio workstation - i own both, as well as many other machines. I also purchase PCs for our sales reps(180 reps in total across Canada and the US), at the company, that i am employed by.

So, I have a question for you - how many PCs have you purchased in the last 5yrs??? I'm guessing, that i work with more hardware than you on a daily basis, and that i own more hardware than you too. I also can tell that i have way more experience, as far as audio production is concerned, than you do - even though your trying to say that i don't know what i am talking about. - which is laughable...anyone can read your comments about pulseaudio + midi - and have a laugh too.

...and Let's put it this way - My Atom notebook - 5ms latency, round trip. Quite suitable for playing 'live' with. My old Dell inspiron core-duo (piece of garbage) - 5ms latency, round trip. suitable for recording and playing live with.

you notebook - 20ms latency - a laughable joke. (especially, when you are claiming that is good!!)

If you really wish a proper discussion, start by reading up on netbooks, what they are, what hardware they sport and what they are used for; then read up on acceptable latencies for different kinds of workloads, what Steinberg has to say on the topic, you know, actual facts; come back with that, lose the attitude and then we can discuss. Otherwise, do keep trying to troll - I'm sure you have more entertainment to offer.

Again, i've purchased many notebooks, netbooks, desktops and servers in the last bunch of years - i know all about the differences between hardware - you can try to talk down to me all you like - but it doesn't change anything. you've already proven you have no real understanding, that you can't even create an argument without using fallacies, making up shit, or putting words in people's mouths, and as far as i am concerned you don't deserve any respect from me (or anyone else), and you know exactly why (by avoiding addressing the flaws, i've pointed out, repeatadly -> but no doubt that you completely avoid them, because all that i pointed out, is TRUE - and you know it!).

Acceptable latency under different workloads... Simple, using a midi keyboard and having accurate sounding audio - 20ms is too high. You've already said the opposite. (which beyond a shadow of a doubt, illustrates that you don't know what you talking about) I've already explained this - you should have no more than 8ms, if you actually intend to be playing it.... Recording (live instruments, midi) - requires low-latency, for the 'capture' to be accurate. (otherwise with midi, you might as well be step-sequencing, or having to quantize your playing - losing all actual 'natural' feel.

High latencies are generally used for mixing (when you have heavy DSP load, CPU intensive), as it can require giving the computer more time to process. Higher latencies are completely useless, if you plan to actually be playing, or recording live inputs. 20ms = high latency, not low latency. - it's not rocket science, blacktard.

Lastly, Your assertion that i don't know anything about PCs, audio production and the rest of it - is just your pathetic to try to make yourself seem more smarter than you actually are. But you've already lost any credibility that you had when you;

a). said 20ms was low-latency and suitable for a midi-keyboard
b). tried to use PA to achieve low latency with alsa-midi
c). created fallacies
d). put words in my mouth that i didn't say
e). failed to understand, basic concepts in most of my posts
f). failed to address any of the above listed problems, among other issues in your logic and presonality

You have ZERO credibility and are a joke, sir. NOTHING more.

bye bye

[BlackStar]

Ninez, you keep trying to troll but it's just not working. Maddening, isn't it?

Then again, you can't even understand the difference between a netbook and an audio production workstation, so anything else I might say would simply go right over your head.

If you really wish a proper discussion, start by reading up on netbooks, what they are, what hardware they sport and what they are used for; then read up on acceptable latencies for different kinds of workloads, what Steinberg has to say on the topic, you know, actual facts; come back with that, lose the attitude and then we can discuss. Otherwise, do keep trying to troll - I'm sure you have more entertainment to offer.