Mobile Users Beware: Linux Has Major Power Regression

[kraftman]

Kraftman it isn't BS. It is just plain fact. OS X beats linux in many areas as well and in the case of power management it has had an implementation that has worked properly going back to the original Mac. It took years for even microsoft to come up with decent power management. With Win 7 they have finally worked on it enough that it is finally usable. It is no secret that linux has shitty power management and has been a sore point for a long time. It's to bad that you get so offended by reality.

It's true os x beats Linux in some areas, but it's also true Linux beats os x in many areas. The reality is os x is supposed to run on apples hardware and Linux is supposed to run on nearly everything. It's not fair comparing os x power managament, because it's hardware spectrum is very low. I wonder if power managament works so well in hackintosh installations?

[kraftman]

Umm ya ok, thats why many Android devices out there have "wake up" issues.

As well as iphones and os x:

http://www.silicon.com/technology/mobile/2008/09/12/minority-report-the-problem-with-my-iphone-39285816/

http://osxdaily.com/2010/03/24/when-and-how-to-reset-your-mac%E2%80%99s-system-management-controller-smc/

http://modmyi.com/forums/general-iphone-chat/31663-1-1-3-iphone-power-management-issue.html

It's really not worth to make such comparisons, because there are always some problems.

[deanjo]

It's true os x beats Linux in some areas, but it's also true Linux beats os x in many areas. The reality is os x is supposed to run on apples hardware and Linux is supposed to run on nearly everything. It's not fair comparing os x power managament, because it's hardware spectrum is very low. I wonder if power managament works so well in hackintosh installations?

It works surprisingly well on hackintosh installations.

[deanjo]

As well as iphones and os x:

http://www.silicon.com/technology/mobile/2008/09/12/minority-report-the-problem-with-my-iphone-39285816/

http://osxdaily.com/2010/03/24/when-and-how-to-reset-your-mac%E2%80%99s-system-management-controller-smc/

http://modmyi.com/forums/general-iphone-chat/31663-1-1-3-iphone-power-management-issue.html

It's really not worth to make such comparisons, because there are always some problems.

Ya there is always some problems, I am not saying that there isn't, I am saying however that power management is an issue on linux, has been for a long time, and on Apple products PM has worked far more reliably then it's competitors. I would put any OS X product against any of their competitors and even try simple things like putting it to sleep. I would bet with great confidence that after even 500 such cycles the Mac would keep on waking and sleeping fine. Turning off a desktop Mac is a rare practice because it does work so damn well.

BTW, zapping the pram/smc usually only helps on a mac after a firmware/efi update.

As far as power consumption goes the numbers speak for themselves:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20041273-1.html

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20035094-1.html?tag=mncol;txt

[fewt]

Ya there is always some problems, I am not saying that there isn't, I am saying however that power management is an issue on linux, has been for a long time, and on Apple products PM has worked far more reliably then it's competitors. I would put any OS X product against any of their competitors and even try simple things like putting it to sleep. I would bet with great confidence that after even 500 such cycles the Mac would keep on waking and sleeping fine. Turning off a desktop Mac is a rare practice because it does work so damn well.

BTW, zapping the pram/smc usually only helps on a mac after a firmware/efi update.

As far as power consumption goes the numbers speak for themselves:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20041273-1.html

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-...?tag=mncol;txt

Power management on Linux is on par (in some areas) with power management on Windows and OSX once you install Jupiter. Without it, power management on Linux is virtually non-existant. Suspend / Hibernate have been a problem for as long as I can remember. It is only now with the 2.6.37-2.6.38 kernels that I can suspend all of my portable devices without a kernel panic after just a few attempts.

There are still reports of devices that aren't suspending and resuming properly even with these new kernels though, unfortunately.

[evolution]

Power management on Linux is on par (in some areas) with power management on Windows and OSX once you install Jupiter. Without it, power management on Linux is virtually non-existant. Suspend / Hibernate have been a problem for as long as I can remember. It is only now with the 2.6.37-2.6.38 kernels that I can suspend all of my portable devices without a kernel panic after just a few attempts.

There are still reports of devices that aren't suspending and resuming properly even with these new kernels though, unfortunately.

Yes, Jupiter is so good that needs as a dependecy mono (a very linux-friendly program, OC (irony)). That also means installing about 140MB of files (in the case of mono, 140MB of bloat) to your linux installation and new 'hassles' to your system...

Have you ever heard about "laptop-mode-tools", btw?

Cheers

[fewt]

Yes, Jupiter is so good that needs as a dependecy mono (a very linux-friendly program, OC (irony)). That also means installing about 140MB of files (in the case of mono, 140MB of bloat) to your linux installation and new 'hassles' to your system...

Have you ever heard about "laptop-mode-tools", btw?

Cheers

Jupiter depends on Mono, yes. It also uses less than 20MB of resident memory, and 0 CPU time.

It has been designed to be light and friendly since it was originally designed for netbooks. The Mono toolkit provided this so I used it. Mono itself is neither Linux friendly, nor unfriendly. It is just another toolkit to write software.

It is also no where near the exaggerated dependency claim of 140MB, Jupiter's mono dependency is under 10MB, and the RPM that hosts the framework is 40MB.

I would love to see evidence of the "hassles" that it brings to your system, sounds like someone just doesn't understand it. Smells like a Fear Uncertainty and Doubt campaign, surprise!

No, I haven't heard of laptop-mode-tools, what is it? Maybe I can add it to the suite of toolkits that Jupiter controls.

Oh wait, I've already done that.

Ignorance is bliss I suppose, and to each his own. I prefer the battery life promised by the vendor of my hardware, which in my case is a difference of 4-5 hours of runtime with nothing or 9-11 hours of runtime with Jupiter on my Eee, and 2-3 hours of runtime with nothing vs 6-7 hours of runtime with Jupiter on my Thinkpad t400. My choice is clear, but then again I have an open mind and an understanding of how power management should work.

[evolution]

Jupiter depends on Mono, yes. It also uses less than 20MB of resident memory, and 0 CPU time.

It has been designed to be light and friendly since it was originally designed for netbooks. The Mono toolkit provided this so I used it. Mono itself is neither Linux friendly, nor unfriendly. It is just another toolkit to write software.

It is also no where near the exaggerated dependency claim of 140MB, Jupiter's mono dependency is under 10MB, and the RPM that hosts the framework is 40MB.

I would love to see evidence of the "hassles" that it brings to your system, sounds like someone just doesn't understand it. Smells like a Fear Uncertainty and Doubt campaign, surprise!

No, I haven't heard of laptop-mode-tools, what is it? Maybe I can add it to the suite of toolkits that Jupiter controls.

Oh wait, I've already done that.

Ignorance is bliss I suppose, and to each his own. I prefer the battery life promised by the vendor of my hardware, which in my case is a difference of 4-5 hours of runtime with nothing or 9-11 hours of runtime with Jupiter on my Eee, and 2-3 hours of runtime with nothing vs 6-7 hours of runtime with Jupiter on my Thinkpad t400. My choice is clear, but then again I have an open mind and an understanding of how power management should work.

Maybe it depends of the distro... On Arch, if you install mono, you'll need to install about 140MB of extra dependencies... (see by yourself here)

You never heard about laptop-mode-tools? A lot of linux laptop users use it...!
You can see some more info here (Arch's Wiki) and here (official site)...

Btw, the way you're talking, are you a Jupiter developer...?

Cheers

[fewt]

Maybe it depends of the distro... On Arch, if you install mono, you'll need to install about 140MB of extra dependencies... (see by yourself here)

You never heard about laptop-mode-tools? A lot of linux laptop users use it...!
You can see some more info here (Arch's Wiki) and here (official site)...

Btw, the way you're talking, are you a Jupiter developer...?

Cheers

I wasn't serious (in regard to laptop-mode-tools), Jupiter has set the laptop mode kernel parameter since day 1. It doesn't replace the entire suite of laptop-mode-tools but it does complement it. I'm not familiar with Arch, but that looks like a packaging issue.

I am the Jupiter author, yes.

[evolution]

Well, after seeing some of the last posts here...:

- MacOS X (unfortunately) beats "pants down" both Linux and Windows in terms of Power Management features. I've a few friends that use Mac Laptops (not engineering students, OC ) and they use their laptops only with battery for over than 6 hours...!

- In my computer, I had slightly better power management on Linux + laptop-mode-tools until 2.6.37 than I had on Windows 7 (which also works a bit hotter)... Now, both OS have +/- the same performance...

- How about a volunteer (or a group of volunteers) to test Jupiter throughly and compare its performance vs userspace laptop-mode-tools?
ATM, I won't install Jupiter because of the reasons posted above (on arch, mono is a big dependency, and I'm not a huge fan of certain kind of applications on Linux)...

Cheers

p.s.: To the Jupiter developer (fewt): Keep up the good work, btw!