Mono 2.10, Moonlight 4 Preview 1 Released

[kraftman]

So let's test again your claims:

Also by default WinForms is not installed in Ubuntu 10.10 (so no risk here), the same about XSP, if you think that ASP.NET may have a tricky patented technology. Anyway, to make an analogy, both Gnome and KDE use an implementation of WebKit by default (Gnome in help, KDE in Konquerror or QtWebKit in general) so you should remove KDE as have technologies that once Apple may want to attack.(is a fallacious argument but have more bases as installed technologies). And we should rewrite all code to use Mozilla's Gecko engine.

Good joke mentioning webkit while it delivered from KDE's khtml. It's rather apple which has to worry. Again, do you know any patents in webkit I should fear? I don't care about Ubuntu, but about overall. It's Icaza who should split winforms, xsp etc. from the main packages.

Any final project is easier to be rewritten in other platform as you don't have to bother with bug fixing and such. At the end everything that is written in Vala can be taken as C output and after this look to any inefficiencies that Vala compiler does (do you know that by default Vala checks about NULL pointer!?) and rewrite them in a slimmer C code. And if you will apply to all libraries/codebases that Vala use, you will get a significant speedup. When will you rewrite Shotwell from Vala to C? Or C++?

I wouldn't rewrite Vala application like Shotwell, because unlike F-spot, I found it to be very responsive and starting very fast.

I've already asked you: when a rewritten of your Arch or Ubuntu installer in optimized C, who knows, from 15 minutes that Ubuntu asks, may get down to 14:35. As for my needs, if you have time, I love Mercurial that is written in Python. Will you write it in C++? But at least its frontend? (TortoiseHG that is also Python based)

I already answered: installer is not something I'm using all the time, close it, run it tens time in a minute like a typical desktop applications.

Does Mono run on Android? Yes, and it does it faster than default Android VM (look for MonoDroid and also here.

Damn, we're finished. :P Or maybe not, because Google guys are quite smart. Thankfully Qt is coming to Android.

[ciplogic]

.Net on android is pretty smart move by microcrap. Kill that droid! (...), killed Maemo & Nokia, pushed DirectX to nearly kill 3D on non-ms platforms, tried to hijack the HTML in 9x (...)

Let me response factual:
.Net on Android: there is no such thing. Is like saying Oracle/Sun Java on AIX, or Java on Mac OS X. IBM did it (paying license fees for TCK compatibility kit) or Apple did it. It is clear when Apple wanted to chase Java support on OS X that Oracle wanted to take ownership after.
There is Mono on Android, which initially was created by someone that was not from Novell, later the idea is embodied by this corporation. You have to show to me an Android Microsoft initiative to date, or iPhone one, and so on.
Novell was a company in fact that had historically support GPL3.
Look the Microsoft point of view:

At this point in time, in order to avoid any doubt or legal debate on this issue, Microsoft has decided that the Novell support certificates that we distribute to customers will not entitle the recipient to receive from Novell, or any other party, any subscription for support and updates relating to any code licensed under GPLv3. We will closely study the situation and decide whether to expand the scope of the certificates in the future.

.
Microsoft for DirectX was in a time that other 3D APIs exist, like Glide, QuickDraw3D (part of Apple QuickTime SDK). DirectX success that well because of market share and good execution as you had to certify your video card to put your DirectX (and version) logo.
In fact even the 3D API that you perceive standard (OpenGL) have proprietary extensions (known as ARB) from 1.x APIs, proprietary compilers for shaders, isolated proprietary API hookup area.
Any corporation I know have proprietary implementations and extensions that are non standard.
This is why you have JS Canvas support in HTML 5, as it was a WebKit extension to make possible to write Widgets in OS X 10.4 (aka Tiger). Do you think that Apple tried to hijack HTML? Novell have proprietary Mono extensions: C# Shell == REPL support, Mono.SIMD, IPhone and Android support. Does Novell want to hijack Microsoft/.Net? Or they are just another face of Microsoft?
Maemo killed by Microsoft? Or by Nokia as they pick Intel as partner? Or Intel is also a subsidiary of Microsoft? That why Intel have arguably the best hardware support on Linux on desktop. It works with almost no driver by default... I hope that Microsoft know what they are doing...

[ciplogic]

.Net on android is pretty smart move by microcrap. Kill that droid!

.Net on android thanks to unpaid time by zombified opensource students is brilliant move by microcrap!

No, microcrap is not that hideous? Why did it prohibited GPL, killed Maemo & Nokia, pushed DirectX to nearly kill 3D on non-ms platforms, tried to hijack the HTML in 9x and pays Miguel to guide zombie work?

I tell you your mono will shine some day - will work everywhere and all due to community! And next day comes microsoft and claims your work to itself.

Anyone who codes for, praises, pays or supports microsoft is just plain stupid or zombified.

MonoDroid is commercial supported project and is paid not to zombies.
GPL is prohibited on WinPhones for other reason: license incompatibilities, which for me means that they were honest (as Apple weren't). I do know why MS wants to have an incompatible license with GPL as was threated by it. And I do think that is a bad move. I don't think anyway that this stops you to use Mono to create a GPL application, game or whatever.
If DirectX is proprietary, does Java is not? Or Cocoa in iPhones? Or your proprietary NVidia or AMD driver? I do hope that once NVidia will show pity to opensource and AMD too, to not talk about VIA, Apple, Intel (that they don't opensource IntelCompiler, because they are also enemies of opensource). If your DX argument was about WinPhones, I think you used Android (that have Android toolkit, no Java one like Swing) or Cocoa from iPhone. I do think that Nokia was the exception on this respect having all stack opensource. Will you buy fast Symbian Nokia phone for it? Just to see that it makes a lot of sense this opensource? Or you just wish that all to bow to your kind wish to have everything opensource and to open all sourcecode of their code. You may ask any corporation to give to you this openess and you will see that some opensource initiatives died (like Sun's Looking Glass project) just because people don't contribute back. I do work in an (hopefully free) opensource project and I do know its challenges. Is not that I don't like it, I just think that people confond always opensource with free and rarely (if ever) they contribute back. One guy here likes GNote and hates Tomboy. Why doesn't he contribute to GNote? Or better to make a much better Qt alternative to it (or contribute to a similar GNote implementation)?
I wish that opensource to succeed, and Mono at its core it is opensource (look that to benchmark a newer Mono, someone on this topic recompiled Mono to latest version to see if are performance gains or not).
Am I zombified? Don't you create a straw man?
Should I make the same argument on Ubuntu development? That they rarely contribute back? Or about Oracle? That they did not opensource their OpenOffice extensions? Or that JavaFX was not supported on Linux in 1.0 release and a part of development was closed? Or that Google have an "embrace, extend, extinguish" Linux kernel that its customizations were removed out of tree because they did their proprietary extensions so phone drivers can make easier their phone drivers but no opensource GPL way?
Will you try to push people to not buy IPhones, Android Phones, WP7 phone but just dumb phones, because there is no way to push those companies to opensource their platforms?

[crazycheese]

So let's test again your claims:

Does Mono run on Android? Yes, and it does it faster than default Android VM (look for MonoDroid and also here.

.Net on android is pretty smart move by microcrap. Kill that droid!

.Net on android thanks to unpaid time by zombified opensource students is brilliant move by microcrap!

No, microcrap is not that hideous? Why did it prohibited GPL, killed Maemo & Nokia, pushed DirectX to nearly kill 3D on non-ms platforms, tried to hijack the HTML in 9x and pays Miguel to guide zombie work?

I tell you your mono will shine some day - will work everywhere and all due to community! And next day comes microsoft and claims your work to itself.

Anyone who codes for, praises, pays or supports microsoft is just plain stupid or zombified.

[ciplogic]

Why you are telling me I should check if Tomboy installs winforms or not while winforms are delivered in mono packages which have to be installed to make Tomboy run.

So let's test again your claims:

$ sudo su
# apt-get install tomboy
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
The following extra packages will be installed:
libappindicator0.1-cil libgnome-vfs2.0-cil libgnome2.24-cil libgnomepanel2.24-cil libgtkspell0 liblaunchpad-integration1.0-cil libmono-addins-gui0.2-cil
Suggested packages:
monodoc-gtk2.0-manual evolution tasque
The following NEW packages will be installed:
libappindicator0.1-cil libgnome-vfs2.0-cil libgnome2.24-cil libgnomepanel2.24-cil libgtkspell0 liblaunchpad-integration1.0-cil libmono-addins-gui0.2-cil tomboy
0 upgraded, 8 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 38.4kB/1,017kB of archives.
After this operation, 4,907kB of additional disk space will be used.
Do you want to continue [Y/n]?

Also by default WinForms is not installed in Ubuntu 10.10 (so no risk here), the same about XSP, if you think that ASP.NET may have a tricky patented technology. Anyway, to make an analogy, both Gnome and KDE use an implementation of WebKit by default (Gnome in help, KDE in Konquerror or QtWebKit in general) so you should remove KDE as have technologies that once Apple may want to attack.(is a fallacious argument but have more bases as installed technologies). And we should rewrite all code to use Mozilla's Gecko engine.

So if it's so easy to port mono projects the good option is to port every mono project to another language - it's quite easy and the final product is more efficient. I thought mono on Linux is dead, but maybe not yet.
No, I'm not. I'm just playing a little with Qt and C++. About performance I don't remember you should something which would backup your claims. Does mono run on Android? If not, it doesn't run on major phones.

Any final project is easier to be rewritten in other platform as you don't have to bother with bug fixing and such. At the end everything that is written in Vala can be taken as C output and after this look to any inefficiencies that Vala compiler does (do you know that by default Vala checks about NULL pointer!?) and rewrite them in a slimmer C code. And if you will apply to all libraries/codebases that Vala use, you will get a significant speedup. When will you rewrite Shotwell from Vala to C? Or C++? I've already asked you: when a rewritten of your Arch or Ubuntu installer in optimized C, who knows, from 15 minutes that Ubuntu asks, may get down to 14:35. As for my needs, if you have time, I love Mercurial that is written in Python. Will you write it in C++? But at least its frontend? (TortoiseHG that is also Python based)
Does Mono run on Android? Yes, and it does it faster than default Android VM (look for MonoDroid and also here.

[kraftman]

"This is a personal web page. Things said here do not represent the position of my employer. " - Miguel de Icaza
Source: http://tirania.org/blog/
What Microsoft and Icaza lobbied with informed choices, or less informed, is not equal to link Mono with whatever of his oppinions.
He is biased and he is entitled to, at least on his blog!
Do you want MS format for office files, to not succeed is fine, just don't pick bad analogies and try to improve logic associations.

Things said there do represent very well the position of his employer.

[kraftman]

Install Tomboy and see if is installed WinForms, so is isolated by your main product, probably is not there (is not, but just check). On Windows on the other hand is preinstalled as Mono come as a full package. Is like QtWebkit that is a Webkit ripoff that may break things from Apple (Webkit is an Apple hosted project) so it may pose similar risks as WinForms. Should we not use Qt for this reason? Don't you find this logic bogus? And what if WebKit will be blocked from Qt? Will mean that Qt applications will use QtGecko in future, not that we have to remove all Qt applications as they pose risks.

Why you are telling me I should check if Tomboy installs winforms or not while winforms are delivered in mono packages which have to be installed to make Tomboy run.

You state a bug/crash that happen on your machine in F-Spot and that's why Gnote was made that fast by one developer. Which is the relation!?

There wasn't supposed to be some relation. I didn't benchmark F-spot, because it crashed.

I don't think that you wrote programs that were larger than some hundred of lines, where using a framework (even is Qt, or C++ STL library) is very important, if not mandatory. I've seen codebases of 14.000 classes, that are like 5 million lines of code, which was hand-made, not generated. Was one of the ugliest in my life experience.
I think you can imagine that porting is not developing: think that some one wrote a versioning system and pin down bugs for two or three years. And after other one skip his hard work spotting bugs, reporting and fixing buggs (that take most of development time, I sow that on average I change 500 lines of code per day in a 2 year time, and this with paid tools like Resharper, Visual Studio Pro, not toys like SharpDevelop or Gedit C# syntax highlighter) but he will translate line with line, probably he will get likely around 3-4000 lines of code per day as I will run the compiler and see where it crash and do a global replace. (I don't want to submine his contribution, but to get a scale of what you imply). So line to line conversion prove almost nothing. The guy will backport fixes after this? I've heard that Gnote is a dead project now, isn't so?

So if it's so easy to port mono projects the good option is to port every mono project to another language - it's quite easy and the final product is more efficient. I thought mono on Linux is dead, but maybe not yet.

You're not a developer, right? Garbage collection, (Generics/Linq even are not as big as stated), var keyword, a decent IDE are the first ones that appear right now in my mind, and the wide range of availability of the code. Performance wise is even faster than Qt/C++ if you use Qt collection framework (or STL/Boost collections). Also you can develop a C# code that works on Windows, Linux (not on your Linux though ), major phones, OS X, web servers, some browsers (as Silverlight, Moonlight). And all those work without an interpreter, as is Python (that I see as biggest Linux "competitor" as abstractions, target, probably the REPL support is the thing that is missing, but just on non Mono distributions). The competing choices as platform availability are Oracle's Java and Adobe's Flash.

No, I'm not. I'm just playing a little with Qt and C++. About performance I don't remember you should something which would backup your claims. Does mono run on Android? If not, it doesn't run on major phones.

[oleid]

(...)Did you used iterators, or used vector with an indexer to visit all data?(...) The issue is that if you still use the lowest paradigm (here C one, that was matching great with compiler optimizations) you will get great performance, but a lot of C++ projects do not work in this way.

It's C++ vectors with indexer, no iterators. And to be honest, I'd never use anything different for that case.

[oleid]

(...)Did you used iterators, or used vector with an indexer to visit all data?(...) The issue is that if you still use the lowest paradigm (here C one, that was matching great with compiler optimizations) you will get great performance, but a lot of C++ projects do not work in this way.

It's C++ vectors with indexer, no iterators. And to be honest, I'd never use anything different for that case.

[ciplogic]

I've heard that Tomboy is a dead project now, isn't so? Why don't you check yourself before making such comments?

You know the tendency of Mono proponents to spread FUD about competing products sure doesn't help its cause. If anything it adds to the perception that Mono is a not a framework that has a merit of its own, but is there because of its vocal advocates pushing it with lies, deception and politics.

I've made wrong assumptions based on blog entries: http://www.figuiere.net/hub/blog/?Gnote not on application availability (as I don't use an app to save 10 M of RAM) and as I'm registered to Planet Gnome, I've get from time to time notifications about Tomboy but I've don't remember anything about GNote (excluding the fuss about porting in initial releases)
Mea culpa for my mistakes. Read lies and non factual statements as degree of correctness and I think that I stand pretty much ok, but still I want to make clear that I apologize for my mistake!