SysVinit 3.11 Released With An "Important Feature" At Long Last

[moonwalker]

Sorry but I don't need neckbeardctl to control my neckbeardd

As much as I personally enjoy systemd, I had to upvote this pearl

[mobadboy]

In theory, yes. In practice, "lol fu".

Way too many cultist userspace programmers have made their code dependent on one specific init system when it has absolutely no reason to be. That should never have happened with anything except system utilities that deal directly with the systemd init system and no other. That's not systemd's fault but it absolutely is the fault of its cultists.

sucks to suck, man

systemd, the umbrella project, provides tons of individual components and features. why not take advantage of whats available, when it reliably works? systemd and its many projects revolutionized and continue to revolutionize linux for a reason.

[oiaohm]

Also memory/storage limited environments sometimes uses an alternate libc like musl-libc.
You can not make systemd work with the alternate libc's short of rewriting parts of systemd to not use glibc specific features.

There is more to the story.

https://catfox.life/2024/09/05/porting-systemd-to-musl-libc-powered-linux/

https://code.atwilcox.tech/sphen/scaly/systemd/-/commits/adelie-v256

Yes people have done musl-libc ports its less than 40 patches to make systemd work.

Not only do you have remove glibc specific features you have to support specific features of the alternative libc you are using. C and Posix standards don't define everything you need.

Yes the patches show that over 99% of systemd is in fact libc neutral. Yes that less than 1% means the complete thing refuses to work.

Of course the above musl patch set has the problem that it takes out glibc stuff and put in musl stuff so effectiving breaking building this patched version of systemd for musl on glibc due to now it using musl specific features.

libc items like it or not are not neutral items.

[intelfx]

In theory, yes. In practice, "lol fu".

Way too many cultist userspace programmers have made their code dependent on one specific init system when it has absolutely no reason to be. That should never have happened with anything except system utilities that deal directly with the systemd init system and no other. That's not systemd's fault but it absolutely is the fault of its cultists.

Name one such dependency that has no technical or organizational reason to be there. Otherwise I call bullshit on your "systemd cultists" whining.

[intelfx]

"speed and simplicity of systemd"

simple != easy.

I never claimed that simple == easy, don't put words in my mouth. I said what I said.

[Nempk]

Got it wrong, though.

I prefer speed and simplicity of systemd over UNIX neckbeards' bloated, slow monstrosity of impotent tools and unsound shell scripts, thank you very much

"speed and simplicity of systemd"

simple != easy.

"I prefer speed and simplicity of Windows over *nix neckbeards slow monstrosity of impotent tools and unsound shell scripts" ahhh argument

[TheMightyBuzzard]

All these things he mentioned as "bloat" are normal parts od desktop linux today.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's why he mentioned them. I very much doubt he'd care if they were only part of your desktop or even just one distro.

[andyprough]

All these things he mentioned as "bloat" are normal parts od desktop linux today.

They are mandatory parts of RedHat/Fedora and the RedHat/Fedora wannabe distros (mainly Debian, Ubuntu and openSUSE). But there's plenty of popular distros that strip out some or all of those parts or that make those parts optional, and there's endless uses for them.

[skeevy420]

I do agree, just that "desktop" was the only simplification in the other user's post that could somewhat work.

The other two just cover way to many scenarios.

The thing is with init systems other than systemd that they are just that and in certain use cases you then end up having lots of efforts to find solutions for things that the ecosystem around systemd brings for free.

Like, as I wrote before, D-Bus APIs for all kind of system functionality.

I agree with your points and was also simplifying things.

Isn't that already the case?

You can selectively build any daemon in the systemd repository right?
Don't need systemd-networkd then you don't build/package it.

Yeah, if you're on Gentoo or LFS

To me, your comment highlights how the size and functionality issues that people seem to have are more related to differences in how distributions package and handle dependencies than they are necessarily inherent to systemd itself. Depending on your distribution you can run into dependency hell by not using systemd or by trying to replace programs it depends on with something else. Not every distribution is that flexible or even wants to be. I wonder how many people really have an issue with Ubuntu or Arch and not necessarily systemd?

Also, we all seem to be using init system to refer to how the system starts as well as complex service management. Depending on one's view, init system can also cover boot loaders. Like service management, boot loaders are also separate but related* to the system initializing. One is a part of systemd which helps blur the lines. Anyways, all that overlap and blurring seems to lead to a lot miscommunication for everyone.

*You know, I just can't find any more fucks to give about init systems so I'm gonna coin the new words "sebulate" and "sebulated" to use instead of the phrase "separate but related". Pronounced "seb-you-late". Like a toddler saying "celibate".

Examples of use could be "I enrolled in the sebulate courses of Calculus and Structural Engineering." "Donald Trump's mental capacity is sebulated with that of a toddler."

Y'all wanna start using those so we can get some new words added to the English language?

[andyprough]

he called for revolution against linux and I am a meme...sophisticles logic in action

He called for a revolution against bloatware/Linux. Don't really need a revolution though. There are already plenty of distros that strip out the offending bloated bits that he's revolting against. Just try something lik Hyperbola.